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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

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Author
Rings on Return of the Toe Cutter Gang - Mt York

Macciza
Online Now
8/08/2012
3:31:27 PM
On 8/08/2012 davidn wrote:

>Well, at least one person is claiming it, presuming the retro occurred
>after 13 April 2010:
Umm the retro occurred very, very recently - hence the discussion . . .

>http://www.thecrag.com/ascents/at/15406213

Cool- but I would have expected that from Warwick, and Simon . . .
Would love to see someone from the younger generation try to do the same . . .
simey
8/08/2012
3:43:19 PM
On 8/08/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>You're falling into the same trap as the ring-clippers. You've taken the
>thousands of routes which are in a style you're ok with and put 'em 'in
>the bag'. Then ignoring those, you're having a sook about a couple of routes
>which are set up for either hard-hitters with huge sacks, or people who
>like pre-inspected headpointing.
>
>Those Echo Point routes look good, but they aren't the best lines in the
>Blueys by a long shot. I'm probably in the same demographic as you, if
>they had a couple more bolts and were 'safe but exciting mixed routes',
>I'd go and do them. However, that would still exclude most people, so maybe
>a few more bolts? Or, if you wanted them to see lots of repeats, bang in
>15 rings per route.........they'd be getting ascents every w/e. At some
>point, you have to say "ok, this doesn't suit me, but not everything has
>to"

I am not arguing in favour of turning every climb into an overbolted sport route. I simply think you need to look at every climb on its merits, on the style of the first ascent, its ensuing history and determine whether the climb is worth preserving in its original state or could things be improved without completely killing the character of the route.

>There's still a lot of people who are scared to go and try the Tote, because
>you can't pull on draws to avoid all the hard moves. If you had put in
>15 bolts instead of 10, it would get more ascents.

But the vast majority of climbers probably feel it is well equipped in relation to the difficulty of climbing and its situation, even those that fail to summit because they couldn't pull on draws to get through more difficult sections.


Macciza
Online Now
8/08/2012
3:45:23 PM
On 8/08/2012 kieranl wrote:
>Time to invoke Macciza's law :

Yeah sorry about that - but it demonstrates that I know something about what is being talked about here.
As does the fact that I have had a 20 year interest in, and have been on, the actual route in question.
I guess I could have mentioned 'DogFace' to elicit the same fear response from the 'Sweaty-Hand Brigade' . . . ( oops, PartB.1 ML, sorry)

It just shit's me the number of Safety Nutzi's who spurt shit about something they know nothing about . . .
And have the smug audacity to attempt to belittle claims of intent by those who actually are doing 'bold' shit
Mr Poopypants
8/08/2012
3:47:40 PM
On 8/08/2012 Macciza wrote:

>It would be absolutely amazing for some one to truly onsight Rage this
>Season or do Age of Reason in original WB style - don't destroy that possibility.

Sorry, Macca - Both those routes were top-roped extensively and gear was preplaced for the original ascent.
They have both been onsighted since then, though. The people I know who have done them did not know they were headpointed originally.


G.

One Day Hero
8/08/2012
3:56:44 PM
On 8/08/2012 rodw wrote:
>
>So two wrongs make a right?

No, but I think its silly to only fight a war on your own turf. If there's a bolt war going on (I reckon there is), then take the fight to the sport climbers 'safe ground'. Otherwise they get the idea that the worst case scenario is to break even. If you introduce the possibility of actually losing ground, they'll; #1) absolutely fuking freak out, and #2) hopefully gain some understanding of how it feels when someone comes and shits all over a climbing area you prefer in its current state.

>name a sport route that
>has always been a sport route that you would take some bolts out of.

Ok, for maximum political effect, I'd do Vanderholics (that was also originally a mixed route, so maybe it doesn't count either), maybe Split Wave? (pretty sure you could use cams instead of 1 or 2 of the bolts)........actually, now I'm thinking about Nowra, how about Very Nice Piece of Cake? You could pull 3 bolts out of that, and it would still be completely safe, but christ there'd be some whinging from all the pussies who want to "lead" it without ever having a bolt below their waist. Rex Hunt's at the Point would be a good, safe mixed route. Also, I have a suspicion that chopping bolts at The Egg may send a rather direct message to a 'person of interest'.

How's that for starters?
cogsy
8/08/2012
3:59:11 PM
I have not been involved in the rebolt, however I was climbing with Giles Bradbury on the weekend, who told me that he supported the retrobolt in question.
I understood that Giles had done the route, and also he apparently was at the crag on the first ascent.
Apparently the route was extensively toproped prior to redpointing. As well as this, poor wire placements were preplaced and "hammered into the placements" to make sure they would stay in!!
I understood when I spoke to the bolter that he had basically replaced the bolts that were there, and added two bolts where gear had been "hammered into the placements".
Seems like a reasonable retrobolt when you look at it that way.

Macciza
Online Now
8/08/2012
4:02:22 PM
Hmm
Pretty sure WB did AoR ground-up from my memory of discussions with him . .

I have never said they haven't or can't be onsighted - just that part their value lies in the fact that they can be.
The fact that they have only strengthens the arguments that the modern-additions are completely unnecessary

Yeah right, on 'the people you know' - what? it never crossed there minds? hmm . . Would love to read that trip report . . .

cogsy
8/08/2012
4:24:29 PM
Isn't it The Rage this Season that got rebolted, not Age of Reason?

rodw
Online Now
8/08/2012
4:24:50 PM
On 8/08/2012 One Day Hero wrote:

>No, but I think its silly to only fight a war on your own turf.

I think it silly to start a war full stop, address the issue at hand, don't create other issues to combat an old one.

Regarding your ideas, yeah you could remove bolts on all those but then again you could say that about any climb..either way whoever is doing the removing or adding of bolts is changing the climb to suit there style/desires so both groups are not right.

Once a FA puts up a route not matter what style, just respect it and leave alone because those that come along and change stuff ... because its not up to your safety or bold standards or whatever find something that is....it seriously ain't that complex an issue.

climbau
8/08/2012
4:34:45 PM
On 7/08/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>>So i shall hear about your ascent of WB routes in an old pair of high
>>tops now. Or will you pull on a modern pair of edging shoes? Five Ten
>make
>>a good one,didnt sell well here.
>
>The Galileo, I have a pair, not as good as Aces.....but you won't believe
>me because you're fully into the marketing bullshit which the shoe companies
>pump out. Australian climbers don't buy them because australian climbers
>don't climb slabs and thin edging routes. Doesn't matter what shoes you
>wear on most of the blueys sport routes, just standing on jugs.
I think you mean Grandstone or possibly Anasazi HiTop as the Galileo is not a HiTop nor is it in the same league as the Anasazi Lace-up. The Grandstone, Anasazi HiTop, Anasazi Lace-Up, LS TC Pro crap all over the Boreal Aces for edging. If your gonna BS about gear ODH better makenit so obscure that only you will no the truth! :)

Macciza
Online Now
8/08/2012
4:38:49 PM
On 8/08/2012 cogsy wrote:
>I have not been involved in the rebolt, however I was climbing with Giles
>Bradbury on the weekend, who told me that he supported the retrobolt in
>question.
>I understood that Giles had done the route, and also he apparently was
>at the crag on the first ascent.
So? Since when did 'being there on they day' count? Was the F.A. consulted?
I am pretty sure the start is shared with Age of Reason and the FA of that is certainly not impressed.
Though I am not sure if he was there when RtS was done . . . But his view count if it affects his route.

>Apparently the route was extensively toproped prior to redpointing. As
>well as this, poor wire placements were preplaced and "hammered into the
>placements" to make sure they would stay in!!
>I understood when I spoke to the bolter that he had basically replaced
>the bolts that were there, and added two bolts where gear had been "hammered
>into the placements".
So? Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to do it in better style.
Most modern sport routes are intensively dogged/toproped prior to the first ascent.
Many include 'dogging' bolts specifically to enable such activity - can I remove them?

Not sure about the 'where they were bit' will have to check but it did not look that way.
50 or 100 cm lower than 'where they were ' can be quite a difference
"Hammered placements" are often nothing to write home about and can in fact be marginal.
Though the term can be bandied about so easily and interpreted by beginners as meaning 'bomber'
Anyway it means there is a placement, so why would you put a ring next to it?
Why would you put and stickclip a 'first move of the deck/boulder' bolt on a known bold climb?

>Seems like a reasonable retrobolt when you look at it that way.
No it still doesn't - it's amazing how a few classical logical fallacies can support any preferred point of view.
Using the same logic I could pretty much proof that bolts should be removed from climbs.
Well this guy who was there on the day reckons the climbers eventually did not even use them
And there were like glued-in nuts or rings or something so they would not fall out etc . .
And I may be wrong but I do not think you have even had a look at the climb in question
And I imagine you had no plans, interest, previous attempts . . whatever, in the route either.

It is an unreasonable and unnacceptable bit of bad bolting whichever way you look at it

One Day Hero
8/08/2012
4:42:00 PM
On 8/08/2012 simey wrote:
>
>I am not arguing in favour of turning every climb into an overbolted sport
>route. I simply think you need to look at every climb on its merits.

In an ideal world, yes, I would agree. However, starting from a point where three quarters of the climbs in the Blueys have already been turned into overbolted sport routes, a different approach is required. Maybe chop some/all bolts out of a couple of hundred routes which are too safe, and then open discussion on how the couple of remaining serious routes could be better set up?

>But the vast majority of climbers probably feel it is well equipped in
>relation to the difficulty of climbing and its situation, even those that
>fail to summit because they couldn't pull on draws to get through more
>difficult sections.
>
Yeah.........I reckon that the bubble of Nati has left you out of touch with the general state of climbing in Australia these days. The vast majority of climbers will never even go to check the Tote out because apparently it's "pretty run out" and you also need to place a couple of bits of gear.
One Day Hero
8/08/2012
4:51:53 PM
On 8/08/2012 rodw wrote:
>
>I think it silly to start a war full stop

I didn't start a fukin' war, the retrobolters did.
>
>Once a FA puts up a route not matter what style, just respect it and leave
>alone because those that come along and change stuff ... because its not
>up to your safety or bold standards or whatever find something that is....it
>seriously ain't that complex an issue.

Right.........so that would mean an awful lot of rings need to get chopped, wouldn't it? The FA's put hundreds of routes up in mixed/carrot style, which have now been retro'd into sport routes. Do you want organise a chopping day up at Shipley or at Thommo's? Strictly retrobolts only, we'll just be returning routes to their original state, as per your suggestion.

climbau
8/08/2012
5:07:12 PM
If you are going to chop retrobolted mixed routes en masse, please just check that the original gear placements are still in tact where the new bolts are.
I have personally seen gear placements erode to the point where thay are unusable and nothing else exists in the vicinity. Sure you could argue that those routes then should just be climbed as is, but the nature of climbing in the blueys is that no-one ever adjusts grades for holds dissappearing, placements blowing out or bolts being added. once you walk the path of modernising or demodernising then the appropriate notification has to occur. You cannot always see the evolution from the ground.
One Day Hero
8/08/2012
5:08:41 PM
On 8/08/2012 climbau wrote:

>I think you mean Grandstone or possibly Anasazi HiTop as the Galileo is
>not a HiTop nor is it in the same league as the Anasazi Lace-up.

I didn't bring hightops into in, Hangdog did. I climb in Gallieo's, think I know what I'm talking about. They are an edging shoe, stiff with thick rubber. Anasazi seems good if you have skinny little french feet. I don't, so can't fit into them at all. (Notice how Hangdog was all on about modern shoes being superior? How old are Anasazi's?). Aces could edge like all fuch once you resoled them with Stealth rubber, I don't really care if you agree or not......maybe they just didn't fit your feet?

>The Grandstone,
>Anasazi HiTop, Anasazi Lace-Up, LS TC Pro crap all over the Boreal Aces
>for edging.

Never heard of 'em, too narrow, too narrow, too expensive (and probably too narrow). The best shoes I ever owned were the green and purple UFO's. Slightly odd shape which favoured kinda frontpointing small edges, but they were magic on thin, vertical granite........I'm still pissed that they stopped making them.

Macciza
Online Now
8/08/2012
5:11:15 PM
On 8/08/2012 rodw wrote:

>So two wrongs make a right?
Maybe not but it does provide balance.

>your example In flaming Flamingo is also invalid as you are still advocating against retros.....
No it is meant to point out the hypocritical attitudes applied by LCD spurt climbing

>name a sport route that has always been a sport route that you would take some bolts out of.

Hmm I reckon you could probably take some out of Exhibition Wall without making it dangerous . . . ( now there's a thought . . .)

climbau
8/08/2012
5:34:35 PM
On 8/08/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 8/08/2012 climbau wrote:
>

>I didn't bring hightops into in, Hangdog did
Comment about TCs shoes looking like HiTops from the 80s?
>. I climb in Gallieo's,
Just a wider version of Anasazi Velcro.
>think I know what I'm talking about.
know or think?
>.....maybe they just didn't fit your feet?
Perhaps, I know a certain Buffalo climber or two who love them for slabbing, one even frontpoints in them. But then again they don't have a modern reference point! :)
>
>>The Grandstone,
>Never heard of 'em,
Rippers, no longer around as HiTops are out of fashion. :(


>The best shoes I ever owned were the green and purple UFO's.
>Slightly odd shape which favoured kinda frontpointing small edges, but
>they were magic on thin, vertical granite........I'm still pissed that
>they stopped making them.
Agreed, classics

E. Wells
8/08/2012
6:00:34 PM
Enough with all the 'facts' cogsy! minor details like the actual route being discussed and the truth about it are dulling the blade. Can anyone tell me why in my 'climbers guide to the rest around Mt. Victoria' Geoff Weigand is called Ralph Weigand? Did he change is name to something phonetically harder after 1982?

ajfclark
8/08/2012
6:09:46 PM
On 8/08/2012 climbau wrote:
>>>The Grandstone,
>>Never heard of 'em,
>Rippers, no longer around as HiTops are out of fashion. :(

I have a pair but don't wear them often unless I know I'm out for some thrutchy crack goodness. I tend to prefer the blanco for slabby stuff, the blackwing and arrowhead for steep, and the VCS for everything else.

Not sure why you think they're not available; They're still on 5.10's site: http://fiveten.com/products/footwear-detail/62-grandstone and still available at the first website I tried: http://www.mountaingear.com/webstore/Gear/Climbing/Climbing-shoes/Five-Ten/Grandstone-Rock-Shoe/_/R-218487.htm

kuu
Online Now
8/08/2012
6:13:02 PM
On 8/08/2012 dangermouth wrote:
> (snip)
>Can anyone tell me why in my 'climbers guide to the rest around Mt. Victoria' Geoff
>Weigand is called Ralph Weigand? Did he change is name to something phonetically
>harder after 1982?

If my memory is correct (questionable) I believe the nickname "Ralph" was used by Geoff's 'friends' as a form of put down.

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