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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

 Page 1 of 6. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 104
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All NSW (General) (General) (General)  

Author
Shackles and the sheriff of Shipley
Linze
20/04/2011
10:21:40 PM
Last Sunday, after a night of little sleep and plenty of whisky, I’m down at Shipley belaying my partner and enjoying the sun in the half waken state that I’m in. But then.... I’m jolted back to full consciousness when the acrid stench of stale smokers breath hits me hard, i turn to see the Sheriff of Shipley staring at me, only centre meters from face. My mind starts racing, i think, “what have I done wrong...the sheriff would never walk all the way across the crag like this unless I had done something serious, like done a route in a manner contrary to the first ascensionist, or made a joke about one of those endangered Shipley plants that have luckily been saved by the installation of highly sympathetic giant logs that are bolted to wall”... then the Sheriff demands “use yr own quick draws when yr toproppin”....

I didn’t know what he was talking about at first, partly because I hadn’t put the rope up and partly because the Sheriff, while vigilant with his actions, was pretty short with his words. I soon realised he didn’t want us to top rope off the shackles on the anchor (bc the 40something kg climber was going to cause excessive wear...of course.).

After giving this some thought, I want to know if this is really an issue for people. In principle, I agree that a reasonable amount of care should go into looking after fixed gear, and I usually wouldn’t set up a top rope through fixed anchors. Having said that, the climber wasn’t all that experienced, so i probably would. I think that this is a common occurrence for this particular route (Jack High), seeing as it is one of the easier routes at the crag, and I don’t really ever want the most inexperienced climbers to have to grapple with the complexities of threading when they have probably just been spanked by the route. I would prefer those climbers just to enjoy their rare day out even if it wears out the anchor 6 months earlier (wouldn’t most of the damage be done on decent anyway?).

Later in the day I noticed that the sheriff was trying to ruin someone else’s day by barking the same orders. If this is really a problem, then why on earth are there shackles up there are all, millions of inexperienced climbers are going to top rope this route, so why not accommodate this????. I will happily donate some old locking biners and then people can happily wear the s$5t out of them by top roping day and night... after which I will happily put up some more... after which i am sure someone else will have some they can donate...

So, I do actually want to find out: is top roping through these anchors really an issue for people??????? If it is i will go and put some biners up there......

Victorian bolts never even know if they will survive the day, NSW bolts are a protected species....
drdeviousii
20/04/2011
10:58:00 PM
Is this a troll?

Yes it fking matters. How many days have you spent replacing bolts? Only to have a bunch of dip shits who can't grasp the concept of re-threading wear the damn thing out in 6 months? It doesn't take long to fk an anchor with gritty sandstone.
Sturge
21/04/2011
12:22:41 AM
I don't get how this is a question that people need to ask.
I was always under the impression that this was a well accepted bit of crag ethic...
If you're top-roping a route, the rope (and draws) got on the anchors somehow, right? Either someone more experienced in the group led it up there, or someone rapped in from the top. If less experienced climbers in your group can't be trusted to thread the anchors, then someone who can (the person who got the rope up there in the first place) needs to.
The way I see it, you were being lazy and got called on it.
RNM
21/04/2011
3:19:58 AM
Perhaps we give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are genuine?!

No, people should NOT top rope with their rope running directly through the hardware that forms the anchor. Yes, it may well be 'only this once', but when everyone does it 'only this once', it is a problem.

It is very frustrating and expensive replacing anchors and hardware.

It is excellent that you are willing to get involved. Donate lots of money. Then go and learn a bunch about anchors. Then start replacing hardware on anchors with appropriate gear. This probably means adding/replacing rated stainless mallions, but you'll learn all about this from someone before you start going about it.

You won't be climbing as much, because you suddenly have less time and less money. But when you do climb, you will probably be asking your mates (and others), not to be lazy, and to stop threading the hardware at the top, and undoing all your good work.

There are SO many climbs that will benefit from your energy and enthusiasm. Have fun!

RNM
21/04/2011
3:38:05 AM
On 14/03/2011 mikllaw wrote:
>On 14/03/2011 Linze wrote:
>>>some of the rings on chook lotto at porters pass are loose.
>>
>>I thought most of them were.
>>Are you going to fix it?
>
>- one seemed fine
>
>- not really able to in the next month or so, but that doesnt mean never. there was >another guy at the crag said he may do it over the coming weeks...

>On 14/03/2011 Linze wrote:
> More than happy to do it in about a month time

By the way, how did it go at Porters Pass Linze? Did you get a chance over the weekend to get those loose bolts sorted out? Or just boozing and chilling at Shipley this weekend?

Understand it is hard to find the time.

hotgemini
21/04/2011
7:48:37 AM
I'll add my voice to the chorus. YES, it matters. Fixed hardware wears comfortable faster than most people think. Anything down to 12 months for 10mm hardware to go from brand new to terrifyingly worn depending on the usage levels and whether or not people toprope through it.

With Kangaroo Point in Brisbane, since I (the sheriff of KP) and half a dozen other people have been letting people know that its not acceptable to toprope through the fixed hardware (~3 years now) we've seen an observable decrease in the rate of wear, and that itself is pretty amazing given that you're talking millimetres. Hardware which by it's previous rate of wear would have needed to have been mid-09 is only now approaching scary levels of wear.

I've also grown a bit tired of the "but he/she is only new" or "but he/she probably won't make it to the anchors" excuses as to why some selfish folks consider it acceptable to abuse a community resource (to which they've rarely made a significant contribution). One or the other of those excuses could probably be applied to 15-20% of the users of shipley and when you run the numbers, that markedly shortens the life of the anchors.

I'm just glad we've finally found someone who is willing to fund it so we can all top-rope directly through the fixed hardware at the blackheath crags. Working off an estimate of say 200 high traffic routes, an average lifespan of 2 years (if they last that long now that you're paying so we can all toprope through them) and using a pair of the excellent Climbing Technology Stainless Captive Wiregates on each anchor, if you could please just forward $4000 per annum to some nice third party rebolting fund (SRC? Climbing Anchors?) and we'll get the ball rolling.

tnd
21/04/2011
8:41:00 AM
Linze, I think you know the answer to your question but you're perhaps being influenced by antipathy towards the Sheriff, who whilst being well meaning does tend to rub people up the wrong way.

As someone else said, whoever got the top rope up should put it through their own draws then get their arse back up to rethread it if the beginner can't.

I'd venture to add that if you are hungover, have had little sleep and are possibly still affected by alcohol then climbing is not an appropriate choice of activity.

rodw
21/04/2011
8:54:27 AM
On 21/04/2011 tnd wrote:
>I'd venture to add that if you are hungover, have had little sleep and
>are possibly still affected by alcohol then climbing is not an appropriate
>choice of activity.

WW&S would never climb then.

tnd
21/04/2011
9:03:32 AM
On 21/04/2011 rodw wrote:
>On 21/04/2011 tnd wrote:
>>I'd venture to add that if you are hungover, have had little sleep and
>>are possibly still affected by alcohol then climbing is not an appropriate
>>choice of activity.
>
>WW&S would never climb then.

Yes, but he's a special case :-)
Linze
21/04/2011
9:13:37 AM
On 21/04/2011 hotgemini wrote:
>I'll add my voice to the chorus. YES, it matters. Fixed hardware wears
>comfortable faster than most people think. Anything down to 12 months
>for 10mm hardware to go from brand new to terrifyingly worn depending on
>the usage levels and whether or not people toprope through it.

...yeah i have heard this a bunch of times, hence my earlier statment which seems to have been MISSED that i do seldom top tope of the fixed anchors... what no one seems to actually be able to clear up is how much differece does it make?? as i see it, surely the anchors are not going to wear that much untill a weighted rope is running on them, and so is a top roper making any diffenenced to someone who is cleaning it?? i CAN see how it would make a difference if there was happening all day, but really, is one person in a party of tewo gonna make much difference?? rather than just repeating the heresay, does anyone have a realistic idea of HOW MUCH diference it makes??

and regardless, my other point stands, becasue it is a high traffic route for inexperienced climbers, no matter how much we would like everyone to behave in 'the ethical' manner, it just aint gonna happen, and so is it not better to equip such routes with stuff that can be easily replaced... just sucking it up and putting a new biner up (a worst case scenario of every 12 months doesnt actaully seem that bad to me) seems to me to be be a better option than blaming the least expericed climbers that go climbing once every two years for ruining our lives, i have replaced biners at nowra a bunch of times when i came across ones that loooked old, and it didnt really ruin my life .... it would be a problem that is limited to only a few routes becasue when people are more experienced, they will either understand, or have no need to top rope...

more than anything, i am affronted by 1. that when people do this sort of stuff, some seasoned mountians 'expert' barks orders at them (and i am not only talking about the Sherrif), really, it is just a bit of steel ... 2 how many of those that whinge about this kinda stuff wouldnt put draws on the fixed biners at the top of trix and madge to do thier 20000th lap, but then stamp your feet at the ethical shortcomings of beginners?
Linze
21/04/2011
9:17:21 AM
On 21/04/2011 RNM wrote:
>On 14/03/2011 mikllaw wrote:
>>On 14/03/2011 Linze wrote:
>>>>some of the rings on chook lotto at porters pass are loose.
>>>
>>>I thought most of them were.
>>>Are you going to fix it?
>>
>>- one seemed fine
>>
>>- not really able to in the next month or so, but that doesnt mean never.
>there was >another guy at the crag said he may do it over the coming weeks...
>
>
>>On 14/03/2011 Linze wrote:
>> More than happy to do it in about a month time
>
>By the way, how did it go at Porters Pass Linze? Did you get a chance
>over the weekend to get those loose bolts sorted out? Or just boozing
>and chilling at Shipley this weekend?
>
>Understand it is hard to find the time.
>
its gonna be a looooooong month......

cruze
21/04/2011
9:23:40 AM
Of course almost everyone who jumps up and down about toproping off the fixed gear also rap-cleans all but the most overhanging sports routes don't they?
tris
21/04/2011
9:44:14 AM
Have you been reading the replies? Maybe you should take some time to try to understand them.

In regards to this point:

>and regardless, my other point stands, becasue it is a high traffic route
>for inexperienced climbers, no matter how much we would like everyone to
>behave in 'the ethical' manner, it just aint gonna happen, and so is it
>not better to equip such routes with stuff that can be easily replaced...
>just sucking it up and putting a new biner up (a worst case scenario of
>every 12 months doesnt actaully seem that bad to me) seems to me to be
>be a better option than blaming the least expericed climbers that go climbing
>once every two years for ruining our lives, i have replaced biners at nowra
>a bunch of times when i came across ones that loooked old, and it didnt
>really ruin my life .... it would be a problem that is limited to only
>a few routes becasue when people are more experienced, they will either
>understand, or have no need to top rope...

If the person seconding does not know how to thread an anchor, take them to the right of the grey slabs and teach them on the anchors that are at ground level. Take some time out of your oh so important climbing day and actually put a bit of work into teaching your partner a new skill in a safe environment. Once you have done this there is no longer a probem.

Really, just stop being lazy.
hotgemini
21/04/2011
9:49:06 AM
Actually, I both do and teach rap cleaning of all but the most overhanging of routes (in the absence of a clip and lower setup).


BundyBear
21/04/2011
9:59:52 AM
>and regardless, my other point stands, becasue it is a high traffic route
>for inexperienced climbers, no matter how much we would like everyone to
>behave in 'the ethical' manner, it just aint gonna happen, and so is it
>not better to equip such routes with stuff that can be easily replaced...
>just sucking it up and putting a new biner up (a worst case scenario of
>every 12 months doesnt actaully seem that bad to me) seems to me to be
>be a better option than blaming the least expericed climbers that go climbing
>once every two years for ruining our lives, i have replaced biners at nowra
>a bunch of times when i came across ones that loooked old, and it didnt
>really ruin my life .... it would be a problem that is limited to only
>a few routes becasue when people are more experienced, they will either
>understand, or have no need to top rope...

Well just make sure that it is you that replaces these biners/anchors. If everyone replaced a couple once or twice a year it would not be a problem, but that will never happen, so its left for people like Mitch to replace everything. Hence, why he probably gets pissed off, it is more the principle of it and looks like you dont appreciate all the work that he does....
widewetandslippery
21/04/2011
9:59:52 AM
On 21/04/2011 Linze wrote:
really, it is just a bit of steel

This is the only bit I disagree with. The bit of steel is a tool that has arduously and purposefully been placed with a persons time, effort and $. Swapping a biner around is an easy task. The fellas and fellaettes who rebolt have a right to get a bit antsy. That said if someone speaks to you at a crag in a way you feel demeaning or derogatory hit them.

deadbudgy
21/04/2011
9:59:53 AM
What or who is the 'Sheriff' of shipley? Arch nemisis of Robin of Megalong valley?

rodw
21/04/2011
10:14:30 AM
On 21/04/2011 widewetandslippery wrote:
> That said if someone speaks
>to you at a crag in a way you feel demeaning or derogatory hit them.

Someone did that a few years back to the sheriff didnt they?
hipdos
21/04/2011
10:33:46 AM
Would the Sherriff be someone who does enormous amounts of bolting work (Thanks Sherriff), but is always up on his high horse about it and has no social skills?
hotgemini
21/04/2011
11:05:47 AM
Alright, lets talk some numbers.

For the sake of the discussion, lets start by defining our 'lowering units'. Assuming a linear relationship and we can define this as 1N.m of rope travel. (that is, one lowering unit, equates to a rope applying 1N of force to the anchor travelling 1m). So an 80kg climber being lowered 15m would generate 23544 lowering units (9.81 x 2 x 80 x 15)

For the sake of the discussion, I'm naming 1000 lowering units a 'bellchamber' (to be clear 1 bellchamber = 1000 lowering units) and we give it the symbol of kJ. So lowering off is taken at 23.5 bellchambers.

For useful comparison, abseiling off a route and then pulling the rope (assuming a near worst case scenario of a 70m, 11mm rope, fed to exactly halfway through the anchor) would generate approximately 0.64 bellchambers.

For the pedants (eg. me) we could even then work out the wear caused by the 'unladen' rope running through the fixed hardware while a top-roped climber ascends the route. (about 0.175 bellchambers)

So for the sake of generating some numbers, lets say that a typical group at shipley might be four friends who each attempt the route twice.

If they all top-rope directly through the fixed hardware we have 8 lowering cycles totalling 188 bellchambers. If we say that there is 5 groups like this a week on jack high, 52 weeks a year. So an annual wear rate of 48,880 bellchambers.

So based on my experience with KP anchors and for the purely comparative purposes of this essay, lets peg the lifespan of an anchor at 100,000 bellchambers. So we've got an anchor life of 2.04 years and as discussed earlier, we're looking at Linze donating about $4000/annum.

If we can convince that group to change their climbing habits so that only the final climber lowers off. That number jumps to an anchor lifespan of 16.36 years and Linze's annual donations to hardware can be reduced to around $489.

If say, half of the routes, are able to be safely/comfortably cleaned on abseil, rather than being lowered and we can convince climbers to do so, then the average lifespan goes out beyond 30 years and Linze's anchor donation drops to $262.50.

Now, going back to the second last example. If say one of those five groups top-ropes through the hardware, rather than using their own draws our anchor life drops back to 6.8 years.

So cliff notes version, just one in five groups of climbers toproping through the fixed hardware results in a ~60% reduction in anchor life.

-Adam.


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