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Crag & Route Beta

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Warrumbungles


cruze

31-Mar-2011
11:50:42 AM

Copyright is or isn't. I am not sure what Australian law you are referring to when something is "copyrightable". It subsists with the author of the literary work upon creation.

Whether a description of a rock climb could be considered a literary work is where the argument would lie. I think that Neil was closest to the mark.

Unauthorised copying of a substantial part of the literary work with which the author owns the copyright would provide the author with a cause of action in infringement. Whether the author chooses to pursue that cause of action is another point altogether.

In non-law speak - if you describe something with some artistic flair you could enforce your rights if you wanted to against someone who you can prove has copied a substantial part of your work. I can't imagine many climbers doing that.


ajfclark

31-Mar-2011
11:54:22 AM

So something like the description of Commander Dildo ("Vibrate up past first BR..." etc) would be protected by copyright while a generic factual description of a route ("Up crack for 5m, to ledge..." etc) wouldn't?


Superstu

31-Mar-2011
1:38:27 PM

I made a start to getting Joe Friend's 1976 Warrumbungles guide online. What a gem of a guidebook!

You know you're in for a treat when it opens with a quote from the observatory....

"TO THE EARTH and STARS, for here is ..... a cosmos of great beauty, power, violence and of amazing extent; technology has solved some old puzzles but had presented even greater mysteries."

And under the route descriptions for Belougery's Spire, we have The East Face Route, 255m, grade 10.....with overhangs, rotten rock, squeeze chimneys, and .... described as "Not a bad face for beginners"!

Unless Joe was having us on, how attitudes have changed since 1976. Imagine sending a bunch of beginners off to climb a meandering 255m route in the Warrumbungles! These days if its not 10m high, ring bolted and 2 minutes from the car, its not beginner-proof enough. The world has truly changed.


The good Dr

31-Mar-2011
2:00:49 PM

On 31/03/2011 superstu wrote:
> The world has truly changed.
>
I think you mean 'The world has turdly changed'

gfdonc

31-Mar-2011
2:06:16 PM

On 31/03/2011 superstu wrote:
>and .... described as "Not a bad face for beginners"!

You've just misinterpreting his words. He of course means "not a bad face for beginners to gain lots of experience".


ajfclark

31-Mar-2011
2:48:32 PM

Actually, he never said it was good for them either...

(What's that called again? Fallacy of the syllogism or something?)

jrc

31-Mar-2011
4:40:51 PM

Indeed . E Face of Belougeries was my third ever climb. May 1971.

jgoding

31-Mar-2011
7:10:45 PM

Howdy, my understanding of copyright in relation to guidebooks is that the description (if not creatively written) is in the public domain and not subject to copyright.

If someone writes a creative story or phrase then only that portion of the description is their "creative" writing, and subject to copyright.

simey

31-Mar-2011
8:40:24 PM

That is pretty much my understanding too.


Superstu

1-Apr-2011
10:15:14 AM

On 31/03/2011 nmonteith wrote:
>I have good topo photos for most of the main formations. What mostly needs
>doing is entering the route descriptions from the old guides - but i think
>Rock loves to make life painful by putting copyright restrictions on its
>publications....

As I'm working through the Joe Friend/Sydney Rockies 1976 guide, its quite apparent that large chunks have been copied verbatim into the 1994 Colyvan/Rock guide. Therefore, I have no hesitation copying route descriptions from the Rock guide into the 2011 SRC guide.


Hendo

1-Apr-2011
11:43:15 AM

On 1/04/2011 superstu wrote:
>As I'm working through the Joe Friend/Sydney Rockies 1976 guide, its quite
>apparent that large chunks have been copied verbatim into the 1994 Colyvan/Rock
>guide. Therefore, I have no hesitation copying route descriptions from
>the Rock guide into the 2011 SRC guide.

Compilations of information can be protected by copyright in Australia, I'm not an expert but a guidebook could very well be protected and copying chunks could be infringing copyright. This seems useful to get an idea

http://www.copyright.org.au/admin/cms-acc1/_images/1115790724ce9fc23df0f1.pdf


Superstu

1-Apr-2011
11:53:26 AM

So you're saying the Sydney Rockies should embark on legal action against Wild Publications for copying chunks of their 1976 compilation guide?


dave h.

1-Apr-2011
1:40:12 PM

It'd be a foolish and brave company which sued for infringement after it had infringed copyright in the same work...


IdratherbeclimbingM9

1-Apr-2011
5:56:58 PM

On 1/04/2011 superstu wrote:
>On 31/03/2011 nmonteith wrote:
>>I have good topo photos for most of the main formations. What mostly
>needs
>>doing is entering the route descriptions from the old guides - but i
>think
>>Rock loves to make life painful by putting copyright restrictions on
>its
>>publications....
>
>As I'm working through the Joe Friend/Sydney Rockies 1976 guide, its quite
>apparent that large chunks have been copied verbatim into the 1994 Colyvan/Rock
>guide. Therefore, I have no hesitation copying route descriptions from
>the Rock guide into the 2011 SRC guide.
>

I have a copy of the SRC 1973 guide, and it seems to me that much of it was copied verbatim to the Joe Friend/Sydney Rockies 1976 guide!

On 1/04/2011 dave h. wrote:
>It'd be a foolish and brave company which sued for infringement after it
>had infringed copyright in the same work...

So, I'd say the precedent has well and truly been set & SRC should be on safe ground!!


ajfclark

1-Apr-2011
7:22:04 PM

The other option would be to ask Rock? Maybe they'd be ok with the guide being updated?


Superstu

2-Apr-2011
3:56:10 PM

We now have all route descriptions from the 1976 guide online. Only took a couple of hours with a scanner, some dodgy Russian OCR software, and a bit of point and click.

http://routes.sydneyrockies.org.au/display/nswrock/Warrumbungles

With reluctance I have omitted much non-climbing text; but alas we are building a new guidebook. If you are interested in the old guidebook it is available for loan from the SRC library, or I can supply scan images.

What remains now is:
a) Incorporate climbs 1977-1994 from the Colyvan guide
b) Include climbs 1995-2011
c) Intro/Access/General Raves
d) Topos and Pictures
e) Pinpoint all crags on the embedded google map
f) jrc to add all his route beta!


Superstu

5-Apr-2011
9:00:09 PM

The SRC guide is now up to date with everything that was in the 1994 guide. (OK'd it with Rock Mag)
Plenty of review and update of route descriptions to do, plus general introductions and raves, and of course topos and photos.
All that was on ACA also added (not much).
Need to trudge through Rock 1995-2011 and Thrutch too... Already have a few routes from Rock that was published around 1995ish.

Does anybody have contact details for Mark Colyvan? I only have a PO Box for Bombala from 1994, I can try snail mail to see if its still valid.


Superstu

5-Apr-2011
9:01:41 PM

Neil, Joe, you got high res pics?


Superstu

5-Apr-2011
9:03:22 PM

If anybody is heading up there this Easter, lemme know and I can forward you a pre-edition PDF for printing, for review and field notes.


pmonks

6-Apr-2011
5:46:56 AM

On 5/04/2011 superstu wrote:
>Does anybody have contact details for Mark Colyvan?

I came up with an email address at UNE for Mark Colyvan in 1998 or so. We had a brief exchange then he went silent, before I'd had a chance to straighten out his Sydney exploits, unfortunately. That email address should have been in the data I sent over earlier (though if it isn't I'll chalk it up to the poor record keeping when I first started on SSS).

There are 111 messages in this topic.