Crag & Route Beta

Author	You Yangs - Flinders Peak Bolting?
gfdonc 4-Aug-2010 3:03:08 PM	Went around to Flinders Peak the other weekend. I'd never been there before, as I thought it was a long walk in. Instead, I found it was only 10-15 minutes on a pleasant trail. But that's not the reason for posting. The weather was lovely, sunny with almost no wind. But that's not the reason for posting. The routes were pleasant enough, I thought a bit stiff for the grade. That's the problem with grades, though, you think 17's are going to feel easy just because you tick the occasional 21. But that's not the reason for posting. I had an enjoyable day. But it was marred by old and spaced bolts. No, I mean really spaced bolts. Like: clear groundfall before clipping the second bolt on Tewksbury (16), from 10-12 metres. Crinkle Cut (14) was undergraded I thought, had no gear at all until the half-way mark then just one rusty old carrot off an awkward clip. i.e. groundfall potential from 10m again. Bosworth (18), very crappy wires at the start could not be trusted, then I managed to lean backwards to sling a tree branch so at least something would slow me down before clipping the first bolt several body lengths of hardish moves off the ground. Bill and Ben (15) is nice, but has one of the crappiest old rusty pins protecting the crux that I've had to place trust in since .. since .. I dunno. Harvest Moon (17) also seemed stiff for the grade, and although the middle section is easier, also offers a groundfall from above half height. And one of the other routes labelled "poor protection" actually has no runners at all as far as I could see. "Poor" is apparently a relative term. For the middle-grade lead climber this is a deathtrap, which is a shame as it's a nice locale, close to Melbourne, and has fairly good double bolt belays. Retrobolting anyone?
KP 4-Aug-2010 3:23:07 PM	I'm always amazed with how much climbing was actually done in the youies. Everything is practically gridded (i use that term very loosely!!). Maybe the FAísts became suicidal from dealing with so many crappy granite slabs.
cruze 4-Aug-2010 3:23:08 PM	Totally in support. (here we go...)
dalai 4-Aug-2010 3:28:45 PM	On 4/08/2010 gfdonc wrote: >For the middle-grade lead climber this is a deathtrap, which is a shame >as it's a nice locale, close to Melbourne, and has fairly good double bolt >belays. Retrobolting anyone? If routes are too bold but with good anchors, why not just toprope? Otherwise we just start bolting down to the lowest common denominator... Retrobolt to a level you feel comfortable with, then another person comes along and still thinks the route is too bold. Do they retrobolt your retrobolt? PS - nice work adding a bolting thread, nothing brings out vigorous debate more than a good bolting thread. ;-)
davepalethorpe 4-Aug-2010 3:41:35 PM	On 4/08/2010 dalai wrote: >If routes are too bold but with good anchors, why not just toprope? Otherwise >we just start bolting down to the lowest common denominator... > >Retrobolt to a level you feel comfortable with, then another person comes >along and still thinks the route is too bold. Do they retrobolt your retrobolt? Bold/run-out is ok with me, but "clear groundfall before clipping the second bolt...from 10-12 metres" doesn't sound much fun... Don't think this sounds like "bolting down to the lowest common denominator".
gfdonc 4-Aug-2010 3:41:49 PM	On 4/08/2010 dalai wrote: >If routes are too bold but with good anchors, why not just toprope? Otherwise >we just start bolting down to the lowest common denominator... In my book, climbing is as much about leading as anything else. Besides, toproping is too much stuffing around. >Retrobolt to a level you feel comfortable with, then another person comes >along and still thinks the route is too bold. Do they retrobolt your retrobolt? Good point - but I don't mind bold slabs. Some headspace practice is good. However, its the groundfall bit that tends to detract from the experience. In other words there is a sensible limit to boldness, and FP doesn't make it below that line IMHO. What is the point in calling a 20m+ grade 14/15 a route if it has no runners at all? >PS - nice work adding a bolting thread, nothing brings out vigorous debate >more than a good bolting thread. ;-) Gets us back onto climbing eh?
jkane 4-Aug-2010 3:45:15 PM	I have been there maybe twice after looking at the range of routes at about the right grade for me. Both times, I was put off by the height of the 1st bolts. On 1st occaision we did some top roping on the other we just did one route and went somewhere else. It's not just the deck out potential, it's also the danger of impaling yourself on the sawn off tree branch below one route (can't remember which) if you do peel off. So I agree that the situation could be improved.
dalai 4-Aug-2010 3:51:20 PM	I climbed there for the first time ~3 years ago and was the first time on a rope in ages. Had no concerns with the bolting or run outs. Was just another typical granite slab...
rolsen1 4-Aug-2010 4:24:24 PM	On 4/08/2010 gfdonc wrote: >Good point - but I don't mind bold slabs. Some headspace practice is >good. However, its the groundfall bit that tends to detract from the experience. Isn't a quetion of ethics yours? or am I confused. I climbed these a couple of years ago and I guess I agree with both you and dalai. Yes they could do with another bolt but they are pretty straight forward and the middle bits are easy from memory. I'd suggest one more bolt but others may want more. It is interesting that the 22 (or 21 cant be bothered looking it up) has a few more bolts even though it eases up considerably, from memory.
nmonteith 4-Aug-2010 4:26:29 PM	I don't remember exactly what i've done there - but i know i've climbed (and soloed) a bunch of routes on the Flinders Slabs. I think I even did some rebolting from vague memory. They just felt the usual runout granite slabs - no worse than half the routes at Buffalo and other Vic granite areas. I wouldn't like to see bolts added to these routes. I also reckon a 'ground fall' on a very low angled slab is a totally different proposition to decking from something steep. Access to all those routes is from the top anyway - so a top-rope is actually a lot more logicial.
Eduardo Slabofvic 4-Aug-2010 4:30:31 PM	If you don't want to risk the potential ground fall, then don't do that route. Go do another one.
..::- Chris -::.. 4-Aug-2010 4:34:37 PM	Does anyone still bolt death routes ? All the "modern day" sport routes i've been on seem to have a bolt every 2-3 meters... I'm currently doing allot of climbing with some people just starting up in the sport and it does limit the choice of route for these guys / girls however I admit there are still are plenty of safe consumer classics.... Why are slabs in general more run out than overhung routes.... I'd rather take a whipper on a steep route than a slab.... never really understood this logic of long runouts on something your most likely to roll down as apposed to a nice clean fresh air fall on a steep route..... I must admit it is nice when you overcome a climb, I onsighted Speed boat wankers (no big deal for most) but for me from the ground everytime i looked at this route i thought was a little under bolted, but once i got on it, i realized there were plenty of bolts when needed etc and it wasn't nearly as bad as i thought it would be.... It's "usually" the case with these type of routes (bolts when you need them) (in my experience anyways) Anyways overall i'm on the fence.... Please Continue the debate.... : )
dalai 4-Aug-2010 4:39:44 PM	Bolted Granite slab does not equal Sport route...
nmonteith 4-Aug-2010 4:41:20 PM	On 4/08/2010 ..::- Chris -::.. wrote: >Why are slabs in general more run out than overhung routes.... A lot of slabs were bolted on lead and using hand-drills. So the bolt positions and spacing was in direct relation to where people could stand comfortably and drill, and how much they were sick and tired of hitting a bit of metal with a hammer repeatedly. Its obviously much harder to bolt an overhung route on lead!
ajfclark 4-Aug-2010 4:44:19 PM	On 4/08/2010 nmonteith wrote: >a 'ground fall' on a very low angled slab is a totally different proposition to decking from something steep. Access to all those routes is from the top anyway - so a top-rope is actually a lot more logicial. Did you do any of the stuff down the left hand end (facing the cliff, might be called Afterburner, Bosworth, Walk on Hot Coals and Weekend Warrior or something) Neil? My memory of that section is that it's not that far off vertical. That said, where we were worried, we rapped in, put the plates and draw on on the way past and stick clipped the first draw. You could maybe use on more bolt between the top of the serious climbing and the anchors, but it was kind of nice to have to focus that hard on the easy climbing too...
..::- Chris -::.. 4-Aug-2010 4:44:35 PM	Well forget Sport or TRAD we are talking the amount of gear it is "possible" to put in... If someone is doing a mixed route and just using the bolts well you get what you deserve... Don't winge just put some wires in and make it safe.... But if a "granite slab" or any route has 5 bolts in 30 metres of climbing with no gear available between bolts then this is by definition a sport route as no gear is required or available.... My opinion... Cheers Chris
..::- Chris -::.. 4-Aug-2010 4:47:00 PM	On 4/08/2010 nmonteith wrote: >A lot of slabs were bolted on lead and using hand-drills. So the bolt >positions and spacing was in direct relation to where people could stand >comfortably and drill, and how much they were sick and tired of hitting >a bit of metal with a hammer repeatedly. Its obviously much harder to bolt >an overhung route on lead! Makes sense.... Is anyone still bolting on lead these days ??
nmonteith 4-Aug-2010 4:48:19 PM	Just looking at my records of rebolting... Tewkesbury - Two old rusty bash in carrots removed and replaced by hangerless stainless GB's. One of the top anchor bolts was also replaced by a GB. This is a great slab route - but still has some big dangerous runouts. (2003) Bosworth - This had some shocking little bash in fully threaded carrots. The heads snapped off easily with less than a 1/4 turn with the spanner. Replaced them with glue in stainless machine bolts. The second bolt I moved about a metre to the right to stop rop drag. Original DBB anchor stills looks good. This route is fun but very runout. (2003) Harvest Moon - Replaced the high second bolt with a new GB. The first bolt is still old and rusty and will be fixed shortly. (2004) - hmmm l obviously didn't go back and fix this! All of my You Yangs rebolting is recorded here: http://www.chockstone.org/Rebolting/Routes.asp#South-West
nmonteith 4-Aug-2010 4:59:09 PM	On 4/08/2010 ..::- Chris -::.. wrote: >Makes sense.... Is anyone still bolting on lead these days ?? Yere - anyone doing adventure multipitch stuff is most likely still bolting on lead occasionally. I've placed a handfull in the Bluies (using a power-drill) and a couple with a hand-drill. Certainly anyone doing new patagonian style routes up alpine granite spires need to be bolting ground up!
nmonteith 4-Aug-2010 5:01:55 PM	Switching feet - i can see the attraction of retrobolting those routes, as they are what I like to call wasted real estate. They are some of the longest routes near Melbourne (and bloody obvious from the highway!) and have great rock, views and some are quite sustained. With the lack of decent bolts they probably get almost zero ascents.

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