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Should GriGris be alllowed FOR LEADING in gyms?

One Day Hero

12-Feb-2011
9:02:45 AM

On 11/02/2011 superstu wrote:
>>
>Don't know any solutions... but their introduction hasn't really improved
>climbing safety based on my experience!

Gri gri's weren't introduced to reduce accidents, they were introduced to stop dogging related homocide! If I had had to belay sieges of Ben Hur proportions before the invention of the gri gri..........I probably woulda killed the selfish leader with a shovel!

Safety is up to the belayer, some kooks will drop you in the gym, with a toprope and a go-slo. If I never climbed stuff where repeated falls and takes were involved, I wouldn't have a gri gri.

yosemite05

12-Feb-2011
9:40:38 AM

How many grigri accidents have there been where the person has been paying 100% attention and using the grigri the way Petzl want you to use it. Go to any sport crag and count the number of different ways the grigri gets used. I also see some climbers will just about let anyone belay them just so they get a climb. How many people have had close calls or accidents by new belayers they have just met versus your usual belay partner that knows how you climb, your idiosyncrasies and will give you his undivided attention.

An example is the post above, they were distracted and obviously took their hand off the gri gri to sort the coils out.

What Mike should do apart from this poll is do a stealth type watching survey at villawood or sicg on the lead belayers/climbers and see what results they give.

Does the climber have their undivided attention or are they chatting, checking out the talent in the gym, watching someone on another climb thats about to fall off. etc

Are they using the grigri petzl approved belay.

Would I let them belay me after observing their technique.

Are they belaying in the right spot.

And so on.

Staff should be more vigilant on the floor, spend more time on the floor and not on mobile phones/computer checking facebook. Be more pro active and shouldnt be talking to the belayer about the redpoint they did outdoors. Maybe this should be monitored also by management.

If a staff member isnt proficient with all belay devices at a lead climbing gym then they shouldnt be on the floor.

Gri gris are awesome but choose wisely who you have belay you, goes with any device.


will5686

14-Feb-2011
12:10:51 PM

On 10/02/2011 ultimate flasher wrote:
>nmonteith: i find when im flashing every route issues such as unconcious
>belayers dont affect me, i just mantle the top out and walk back down.
>seems to work everytime. only if your strong enough of course
>
>i also find that as long as it is not a woman belaying then ground falls
>also aren't an issue.
>Garbie: in those gri gri accidents you mentioned, what was the sex of
>the belayer? i am pretty certain they were women each time

I don think this type of sexism is appropriate on chockstone.

widewetandslippery

14-Feb-2011
12:18:20 PM

I agree, racial profile and sexual orientation should of been included.


Miguel75

14-Feb-2011
12:28:09 PM

I miss Moira and her insights...


MrsM10iswhereitsat.

14-Feb-2011
1:42:09 PM

On 14/02/2011 will5686 wrote:
>On 10/02/2011 ultimate flasher wrote:
>>nmonteith: i find when im flashing every route issues such as unconcious
>>belayers dont affect me, i just mantle the top out and walk back down.
>>seems to work everytime. only if your strong enough of course
>>
>>i also find that as long as it is not a woman belaying then ground falls
>>also aren't an issue.
>>Garbie: in those gri gri accidents you mentioned, what was the sex of
>>the belayer? i am pretty certain they were women each time
>
>I don think this type of sexism is appropriate on chockstone.

But is it sexism Mz will5686 ?
I took it to mean in the perhaps equally stereotypical fashion, that most women belayers are lighter than their male climbing companions, and as a result, unless anchored to the floor or ground, end up going up as their falling partner continues falling down to possibly deck out.


will5686

14-Feb-2011
10:54:48 PM

On 14/02/2011 MrsM10iswhereitsat wrote:
>On 14/02/2011 will5686 wrote:
>>On 10/02/2011 ultimate flasher wrote:
>>>nmonteith: i find when im flashing every route issues such as unconcious
>>>belayers dont affect me, i just mantle the top out and walk back down.
>>>seems to work everytime. only if your strong enough of course
>>>
>>>i also find that as long as it is not a woman belaying then ground falls
>>>also aren't an issue.
>>>Garbie: in those gri gri accidents you mentioned, what was the sex of
>>>the belayer? i am pretty certain they were women each time
>>
>>I don think this type of sexism is appropriate on chockstone.
>
>But is it sexism Mz will5686 ?
>I took it to mean in the perhaps equally stereotypical fashion, that most
>women belayers are lighter than their male climbing companions, and as
>a result, unless anchored to the floor or ground, end up going up as their
>falling partner continues falling down to possibly deck out.

If this was what he meant then he would have written something about how heavy the belayers were, as in "i also find that as long as it is not a smaller person belaying then ground falls also arn't an issue". The issue that he relates poor belaying skill to is gender - not size. If he said the same thing about men being poor belayers I would also take offence - to relate anybody's skill at anything to their gender is wrong and reinforces the kind of negative stereotypes that stop many women from enjoying a sport like rock-climbing or mountain biking.

I could respond to Ultimate Flasher and say that women are naturally better belayers because they are more careful and cautious, and are more likely to pay attention to the climber and not get distracted, but I would be wrong. Being a woman does not make a person inherently better or worse as a belayer than any other person, being conscientious and aware makes a person a better belayer, and these qualities have nothing to do with an individuals sex.

But now I am just getting off topic. So I will make a small comment on that as well, just so i don't get in trouble: I have no problem with gyms letting leaders use gri gri's as long as they have been tested to make sure they know how to properly use them.

Claire


Sonic

15-Feb-2011
8:51:57 AM

On 12/02/2011 yosemite05 wrote:
>Staff should be more vigilant on the floor, spend more time on the floor
>and not on mobile phones/computer checking facebook. Be more pro active
>and shouldnt be talking to the belayer about the redpoint they did outdoors.
>Maybe this should be monitored also by management.

Thats sounds like a shot at our staff. Seeming you are a SICG regular, Brendan, I find that comment a little offensive to be aired on a forum such as this as we are not all like that. I like chatting to our clientel, and I'm sure they like it too as opposed to only conversing with us when we have to pick up their bad belay technique.

>If a staff member isnt proficient with all belay devices at a lead climbing
>gym then they shouldnt be on the floor.

So when a less experinced staff member is on duty, there should be no floor patrol because they don't know the intricacies of how to use a edelrid zap-o-mat or trango cynch or CT click up? Or are you one the people who doesn't like being told off by someone you think is less experienced than you?

widewetandslippery

15-Feb-2011
8:55:41 AM

Out of interest. if I show up to a gym with a no gri gri rule, with only a gri gri with me as a belay device, will they let you use a wog knot instead?


Sonic

15-Feb-2011
8:57:40 AM

No as it is not a belay 'device' as far as I understand


nmonteith

15-Feb-2011
9:51:47 AM

On 14/02/2011 will5686 wrote:
>If this was what he meant then he would have written something about how
>heavy the belayers were, as in "i also find that as long as it is not a
>smaller person belaying then ground falls also arn't an issue". The issue
>that he relates poor belaying skill to is gender - not size.

Just ignore him (or her?). It was an obvious troll. They created a brand new account and have only posted once.


garbie

15-Feb-2011
11:19:30 AM

On 15/02/2011 Sonic wrote:
>On 12/02/2011 yosemite05 wrote:
>>Staff should be more vigilant on the floor, spend more time on the floor
>>and not on mobile phones/computer checking facebook. Be more pro active
>>and shouldnt be talking to the belayer about the redpoint they did outdoors.
>>Maybe this should be monitored also by management.
>
>Thats sounds like a shot at our staff. Seeming you are a SICG regular,
>Brendan, I find that comment a little offensive to be aired on a forum
>such as this as we are not all like that. I like chatting to our clientel,
>and I'm sure they like it too as opposed to only conversing with us when
>we have to pick up their bad belay technique.
>
>>If a staff member isnt proficient with all belay devices at a lead climbing
>>gym then they shouldnt be on the floor.
>
>So when a less experinced staff member is on duty, there should be no
>floor patrol because they don't know the intricacies of how to use a edelrid
>zap-o-mat or trango cynch or CT click up? Or are you one the people who
>doesn't like being told off by someone you think is less experienced than
>you?

I think you will always get customers who are more expert at particular devices than the staff - the staff will be regular users of only one or two devices, like everyone else, especially if the customer uses something a bit unusual like a zap-o-mat.

We'd like climbers to put themselves in to the staff's shoes: if there's an "incident" on their shift, they will obviously be asked some questions. So don't be upset if they "talk belay technique" with you, they're only doing their job.

Our staff are focusing on what they can monitor most easily - keeping the brake hand on the tail at all times no matter what device (all manufacturers recommend this) - its hard to get into too much trouble if you do. If you're climbing at St Peters or Villawood, thats what we want to see! Thanks in advance.

yosemite05

15-Feb-2011
3:03:35 PM

Hey Mike, I wasn't having a dig at any staff member or sicg and my apologies if you have taken offence. I don't only climb at sicg. The staff at villawood are the friendliest in any gym in Sydney. You wanted input on how to manage lead belaying especially with a gri gri so no more accidents happen using this awesome device.

There are 73 messages in this topic.