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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 2 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 74
Author
OT - cattle grazing in the alps

Maxo
18/01/2011
4:19:03 PM
Interestingly, the EDO Victoria think that this could very well be a 'controlled action' under the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Act (a Commonwealth law). In which case:

a) someone is acting unlawfully here; and
b) interested persons could potentially force the Commonwealth's hand, using the courts.

http://www.edo.org.au/edovic/publications/bulletin/edo_e-bulletin.htm


hangdog
18/01/2011
4:19:04 PM
. However, I don't see that those
>traditions get wiped out if the cattlemen don't get virtually free agistment
>in national parks,

Is it the FREE part that bothers you most or do the beardy dreadlocked types have a mortgage on free stuff.

whereas I do see that lots of hoofed animals in national
>parks alter the ecosystems.

If they have been there for seventy years then is it possible that some parts of the environment that you feel entitled to is like that as a result of grazing. Oh i remember before the cattle grazed it was so different...... Oh hang on i wasnt born then.

And I think we beardy and drreadlocked types
>also have a right to our quiet enjoyment of some relatively pristine alpine
>ecosystems.

I am not sure which i would enjoy more cattle ,or self rightous bearded and dreadlocked types roaming around the place.

billk
18/01/2011
4:33:23 PM
On 18/01/2011 hangdog wrote:
>Is it the FREE part that bothers you most or do the beardy dreadlocked
>types have a mortgage on free stuff.
>

I think national parks should be there for the quiet enjoyment of all of us, along with the preservation of natural ecosystems. I think that means seeing national parks as more than just an economic resource.

>If they have been there for seventy years then is it possible that some
>parts of the environment that you feel entitled to is like that as a result
>of grazing. Oh i remember before the cattle grazed it was so different......
>Oh hang on i wasnt born then.
>

While grazing was still going on in Victoria, there was the comparison with NSW alpine parks, where there was no grazing. The two ecosystems looked quite different in parts. After grazing ended in Victoria, there were documented changes in alpine environments, which can be summarized as increasing biodiversity and increasing numbers of formerly rare plants.

BTW: You have hit the nail on the head with the word "entitlement," only we appear to be on opposite sides on who is overstepping the mark in claiming theirs.
kieranl
18/01/2011
4:38:22 PM
On 18/01/2011 hangdog wrote:
>If they have been there for seventy years then is it possible that some
>parts of the environment that you feel entitled to is like that as a result
>of grazing. Oh i remember before the cattle grazed it was so different......
>Oh hang on i wasnt born then.
There are research areas in the alpine area that have had cattle excluded since about 1941. Maisie Fawcett started the original research at that time.
The science was the basis for total exclusion a few years back. And cattle have been excluded from the high country in Kosci for several decades.
The science was well and truly in on the impact of cattle when I was at Uni back in the 70s.

hangdog
18/01/2011
5:35:01 PM

>There are research areas in the alpine area that have had cattle excluded
>since about 1941. Maisie Fawcett started the original research at that
>time.
> The science was the basis for total exclusion a few years back. And cattle
>have been excluded from the high country in Kosci for several decades.
>The science was well and truly in on the impact of cattle when I was at
>Uni back in the 70s.

So what is the agenda then.
Is the cattle lobby really that powerful ???
Paul
18/01/2011
5:48:03 PM
Seems to me that it is just the government buying the country vote again. Just like when the federal Minister for environment, think it was Ian Campbell proposed heritage listing of grazing when it was removed the first time, he wanted its removal when he was in opposition.

People living in the near by catchments probably would like the reduction in water quallity caused by grazing in return for science re proving what science has allready proven beyond reasonable doubt.

It is a pity that politions are happy to do large amounts of environmental damage in an attempt to keep them in a job after the next election.
richb
18/01/2011
7:04:22 PM
Yeah, the alpine grazing issue is a contentious one...

As someone who has earned a living working with horses and cattle for the last few years, the idea of droving your cattle up into the high country for summer is very appealing. However, why should a handful of people get basically free agistment at the expense of the environment? Why do they get it just because they were there first? What would Melbournians do if John Batman's family all turned up and tried to take over the city because they were there first? (I know its drawing a long bow....)

If they decide that grazing will be re-instated for the long term, at least charge them reasonable rates for agistment and put into place KPI's that need to be achieved if they are to renew their lease. The KPI's should include pest-plant and pest-animal control, and if the DSE was actually funded properly, they could assist with chemical costs or equipment loan if the leaseholders are doing the work.

Whatever happens, most of the high country is now an altered environment and needs to be managed. Re-introducing grazing probably isn't the answer but just locking it up and doing nothing isn't the answer the either - especially as the DSE and Parks are chronically underfunded and understaffed.

While we're all banging on about cattle, what about bolts, chalk, tracks all over the place, soil compaction around the base of cliffs, litter, brushing of vast tracts of moss, human faeces and toilet paper, etc etc. A couple of times at Araps I've had tourists bail me up and berate me for vandalising the cliffs with chalk and bolts. I love climbing and I've made some great friends and my wife and I have had some wonderful times 'on the rocks', but no one is perfect I guess.




billk
19/01/2011
3:16:27 PM
On 18/01/2011 hangdog wrote:
>So what is the agenda then.
>Is the cattle lobby really that powerful ???

The Mountain Cattlemen's Association does have a significant degree of public support. You will see plenty of "Mountain Cattlemen Care for The High Country" and "Alpine Grazing Reduces Blazing" bumper stickers around Melbourne. I don't know if that segment of the public entered into the government's calculations of the political pluses and minuses of putting cattle back in the national park.
kieranl
19/01/2011
4:30:47 PM
The theory seems to be that if you say something loudly enough and often enough, eg "Grazing reduces blazing" that it will be true.
Whereas the science to date says that there was no significant impact of wildfire between grazed and ungrazed areas.
if the science had said : 'Evidence is equivocal" or "Not enough evidence" then you could make a case for a trial, but that isn't the situation here.
One Day Hero
19/01/2011
9:30:26 PM
I think most sensible people would be debating how much (or little) negative impact the cows have, rather than inventing positive impacts which are clearly silly.
Wendy
19/01/2011
9:50:45 PM
On 19/01/2011 One Day Hero wrote:
>I think most sensible people would be debating how much (or little) negative
>impact the cows have, rather than inventing positive impacts which are
>clearly silly.
>

Not sure what there is to debate on the negative side either. 2nd half of this page addresses it http://vnpa.org.au/page/publications/fact-sheets/faq-sheet-_-cattle-grazing-in-the-alps

I wonder if it would be best to start with debating if the national party (driving half of the coalition on this one) are sensible people in the first place?

You can write to our ever beloved politicians about it here:
http://vnpa.org.au/page/nature-conservation/take-action/help-keep-our-alps-cattle-free!

Paulie
20/01/2011
7:15:03 AM
On 19/01/2011 billk wrote:
You will see plenty of "Mountain Cattlemen Care for The
>High Country"

The slogan should read: "Mountain Cattleman care for the High Country - Cattle do not"
Paul
20/01/2011
8:40:27 AM
On 20/01/2011 Paulie wrote:
>On 19/01/2011 billk wrote:
>You will see plenty of "Mountain Cattlemen Care for The
>>High Country"
>
>The slogan should read: "Mountain Cattleman care for the High Country
>- Cattle do not"

Or maybe "Mountain Cattlemen care for the government subsidizing a majority of the cost of alpine grazing"
earwig
20/01/2011
11:22:58 AM
On 20/01/2011 Paul wrote:
>
>Or maybe "Mountain Cattlemen care for the government subsidizing a majority
>of the cost of alpine grazing"

Or maybe "The government cares for Mountain Cattlemen, subsidising the cost of cattle grazing."
gtempest
20/01/2011
12:55:14 PM
Or maybe,

"Mountain Cattlemen and bullshit go together."
jimfalla
20/01/2011
1:27:33 PM

>Or maybe "Mountain Cattlemen care for the government subsidizing a majority
>of the cost of alpine grazing"

Could someone please post the cost of the lease / agistment that is charged.

What is the current going rate for cool climate agistment of a similar quality?
kieranl
20/01/2011
2:02:35 PM
Accroding to lacto, who is a dairy farmer and has to know the costs of these things, commercial agistment on "prime Pastures " which is what the cattle men call it is in excess of $1.00 a day (per head I think that is).
Prior to alpine grazing being phased out several years ago the "licence fee is $5 per adult cow per season of grazing (excluding GST). A grazing season
is about 1620 weeks." (Goverment information sheet on phasing out of alpine grazing)
http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/CA256F310024B628/0/5A04138FBE7AE0E7CA25700B001CD34D/$File/AlpineGrazing-FAQ.pdf
Call it a 15 week grazing period and that's $1 per 3 weeks or about 5 cents per day.
/* post-edit : no wonder they didn't want to lose this gravy train!! end post-edit */
I haven't been able to find what the cost per head is during the trial, or even if there is a cost. Heck, for all I know the govt is paying people to get them to participate.
kieranl
20/01/2011
2:09:45 PM
According to a cattlemen's website www.cowpad.info on 12/1/2011 : "In the last few days six Mountain Cattlemen families have placed cattle into selected areas of the Alpine National Park at the invitation of the State Government."
Hows that for open government? I bet lacto wouldn't have minded being "invited" to agist out his herd at mates rates.
* post-edit : at least they got the website name right because it's full of it.
tmc
20/01/2011
5:06:19 PM
Just wondering how many of the people here visit the high country be it hiking, hunting, fishing, camping, 4x4ing, riding etc.

Cattle or no cattle, the place is GOING TO SH!T.

Travis.

billk
30/01/2011
4:03:27 PM
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/top-scientists-urge-halt-to-alpine-grazing-trial-20110129-1a938.html

 Page 2 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 74
There are 74 messages in this topic.

 

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