Goto Chockstone Home

  Guide
  Gallery
  Tech Tips
  Articles
  Reviews
  Dictionary
  Links
  Forum
  Search
  About

      Sponsored By
      ROCK
   HARDWARE

  Shop

Black Diamond: 120cm Nylon Runner. (Open sewn sling) 18mm wide nylon. Assorted colours. Awesome value IMO.   $8.50
15% Off

Chockstone Photography Australian Landscape Photography by Michael Boniwell
Australian Landscape Prints





Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 9. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180
Author
Boganville
phm
5/05/2010
5:55:42 PM
Some friends of mine have established a bunch of routes at a new crag that was discovered by them and some other climbers. In fact, my friends have bolted a stack of routes in a number of new crags they discovered. Actually, they probably bolted more routes than anyone else during the past years in the general area. And thatís quite an achievement, considering that the likes of Mikl Law and Neil Monteith call this very same area their home ground.

I am digressing, however. I really only want to talk about this one area they developed. They put up about 30-odd routes at this crag, at grades between 20 and 32 or thereabouts. They also put in quite a lot of work to provide safe access. All in all it would have taken them around 50 days of hard work to get this crag to where it currently stands, plus several thousand dollars worth of steel, glue, drill bits etc.

My friends are not rich people. Putting up this sort of money is not easy for them. They really only have time to spare on week ends and in their holidays. But they love exploring and bolting new climbs, strange as it may sound for most others, and they are prepared to pay the price.

This new crag is an awesome place. And I am forever grateful towards them for taking me out to spend time with them there.

In actual fact, my friends have been quite generous with sharing their new routes with others. Chances are, if you really want to come out and climb at this place they will take you there, give you the tour and make sure you have a good time. Quite likely, they will put the draws on the classics for you, and if you are a bit like me, a top rope as well.

My friends have no problem with publishing the information about their new routes, as long as it happens on their terms.

Enter commerce. There is this guy who is writing a guide book to the general area. He doesnít bolt any new routes himself, doesnít really explore new areas or support those who do. He is running a business, and therefore his interest lies elsewhere: he wants to make a buck. Nothing wrong with that of course.

This guy heard about this crag my friends have developed. Since many people know, he also found out where it is. He hasnít really climbed there much himself, and surely hasnít contributed in any way to the development.

However, this guy has just given my friends a phone call. He reckons, he will put the crag into the new guide book he is putting together. He also reckons, that if my friends donít provide information on route names and the like, he will simply make it all up himself. This guy also claims, he is acting in the general climbing publicís interest. He reckons, that climbers have a right to find out about new places to go. He reckons, that this right of the general climbing public overrules my friendsí terms for publication of their new routes.

So when the new Blue Mountains Guide Book comes out, and you read about Boganville remember this story. By all means, please wonder out there and have a climb. As I said, itís an awesome place and you can be sure to enjoy great days there.

But also ask yourself: if this is only one of several crags my friends have developed, and if the story behind the publication of this one crag is the story I have just told, then what are the chances for you to ever find out about the other places my friends have developed? How would you feel, if you were in the position of my friends? Even if you donít share their views Ė can you at least respect them for what they do? And if you can respect them, why canít the guide book Ďauthorí?
hipdos
5/05/2010
6:08:18 PM
You sound like you have good friends
simey
5/05/2010
6:09:38 PM
On 5/05/2010 phm wrote:
>My friends have no problem with publishing the information about their new routes, as long as it happens on their terms.

Well what are their terms?

Stop dicking around with such stupid nonsense. Give Carter the full details so the routes can be published in the Blue Mountains Guidebook. If you don't give him the crag details, then don't whinge if he writes up the area with different names, different grades, different starring. If you are trying to get paid for developing a crag, then you are kidding yourself.

If you have a problem with a Carter doing a guidebook to the Blue Mountains then produce your own guidebook to the Blue Mountains and compete against his.


nmonteith
5/05/2010
6:12:20 PM
It's a bloody public cliff near many other popular climbing areas. These guys don't own it. Everyone has a right to go there. Just because you put in bolts doesn't give you ANY rights on who can climb there. I vote #1 for Simon and his guidebook.
hipdos
5/05/2010
6:19:13 PM
Seems like a bit of bitterness about one thing or another. Silly really.

Butters81
5/05/2010
6:19:15 PM
Yeh what are their terms?
Are they installing a turnstile?

nmonteith
5/05/2010
6:28:06 PM
p.s. If you bolt in Australia you pay for your own bolts. Simon puts an INCREDIBLE amount of work into doing the guide - and it's also collaborative effort. I've happily helped him with research, text and photos (not just of my own routes). I just want to see the best Bluies guide out there with the most accurate information.

I can understand the theory behind not revealing a crag if there is a potential access problem. I always believed that was the reason that Boganville (and Farside, Bells ect..) were not made public. But it seems it was for more personal reasons...

and how are people supposed to ask to get the aforementioned personal tour of this place if you don't even mention their names? sigh...
phm
5/05/2010
7:12:08 PM
@simey Ė my friends never asked for money.

@nmonteith Ė this is not about sharing my friendsí views. Quite likely many people think differently than them. Itís about respecting them, even when you donít share their views.

If you canít reach agreement about the publication of a new crag, then I believe, you shouldnít bully people into having the information published against their will. After all, itís them who have put in the effort, the time and the money to establish these routes.

nmonteith
5/05/2010
7:20:56 PM
I can understand keeping one new area under wraps in the short term whilst the new routing fever gets ironed out, but once the routes are bolted, and people are visiting - whats the problem with making it public? Again, its not their rock, it's everyone's rock. These crags have been there for many years - in fact its my understanding that the Farside was climbed at more than 10 years ago. I think this is more a conflict of personalities... probably something that needs sorting out face to face, rather than on a public forum. The long walk in's and hard grades will filter out hoards of people visiting these places anyway.

These are really great crags - major areas. They should be shared amongst all.
phm
5/05/2010
7:28:01 PM
@nmonteith Ė as I said in my initial post: there is no problem with publishing these routes, as long as the terms of my friends are respected. And as I also said in my initial post: talk to them, and most likely they will share.
carugo
5/05/2010
7:43:36 PM
On 5/05/2010 phm wrote:

>
>But also ask yourself: if this is only one of several crags my friends
>have developed, and if the story behind the publication of this one crag
>is the story I have just told, then what are the chances for you to ever
>find out about the other places my friends have developed? How would you
>feel, if you were in the position of my friends? Even if you donít share
>their views Ė can you at least respect them for what they do? And if you
>can respect them, why canít the guide book Ďauthorí?
>

So purchasers of the guide are supposed to respect your friends (whoever they may be) for wanting to publish information about routes (wherever they may be) only on certain terms (whatever they may be)? At best your post is pointless, at worst it's patronising and insulting.
hipster
5/05/2010
7:58:08 PM
I heard about these issues and I've gotta say it's dissapointing. I don't see why anyone should get paid other than Simon. He's put 4 solid months into this guide, topo photos, area photos, etc, it's gonna be friggin awesome. The crag photo alone for Boganville took him over 4 hours of scrub bashing just to get exactly what he wanted. There's 45 areas in this new guide.Who farken cares if he doesn't new route. He puts back in many ways. I've seen him at plenty of TrackCare days, swinging a pick, humping rocks..there's no glory there, and I've never seen your friends there. He's donated both equipment and packs...AND money!! Proceeds from this next guidebook will be going directly to trackcare and rebolting and, quite frankly, I don't think you can ask for more.
I think it's wrong to open the can of worms, but you have. Simon has put his business and family life on the backburner to do this guide book. Shameful thread sorry...

martym
5/05/2010
8:02:03 PM
On 5/05/2010 phm wrote:
>@nmonteith Ė as I said in my initial post: there is no problem with publishing
>these routes, as long as the terms of my friends are respected. And as
>I also said in my initial post: talk to them, and most likely they will

But didn't you say:
> this guy [Carter] has just given my friends a phone call. He reckons, he will put the crag into the new guide book he is putting together. He also reckons, that if my friends donít provide information on route names and the like

I reckon your mates should be grateful that they get the highest honour an Aussie Climber can be afforded:
FFA Joe Bloggs

Otherwise what are their terms? Reimbursement for the bolts & glue?

rodw
Online Now
5/05/2010
8:19:47 PM
Im all for secret crags but once the "secret" is out your got no rights re publication etc.

If they want it all to themselves while developing, make sure they tell people they trust not to spread the word...but even then if someone stumbles across it, nothing you can do...find a new "secret" crag, its what I do.

Hey simon, drop boganville and put Sahara Pt back in...Im still dirty you omitted it from your last guide (jk btw, couldnt give a rats).


phm
5/05/2010
9:09:18 PM
@hipster Ė so let me get this right: Someone works hard in his job in the climbing industry, and therefore this person is allowed to bully other climbers? And also, if you donít show up for Track Care work days you can be bullied by those who do? That sounds rather strange to me.

Iím sure the new guide book will be flash. After all, it will be professionally made to earn the publisher a return on his investment. Thatís all fine, but itís not fine if this money is earned at the expense of those who provide the raw material for the guide book Ė the new routes.

Lots of people put their family life on the backburner to earn a living and pay the mortgage. Some of them even manage to do so without being a bully.
kieranl
5/05/2010
9:34:28 PM
If I was prone to using the word "dude", I'd say "Dude, what's your problem?"
Your mates put up some routes. The guidebook editor wants to put them in the guide and your mates don't want to give him descriptions unless he hands over some loot?
Well, I guess he'll just have to put in what he sees fit to and your mates can go whistle.
You seem to be jealous of the vast sums that Simon is going to earn from this guide. What a joke. If Simon wanted to make real money he'd just keep taking photos and not bother with the guide.
Kudos to your mates for developing an area. Thumbs down to them for the rest of this rubbish.
phm
5/05/2010
9:36:46 PM
@kieran - as I said before: my friends never asked for money.

sliamese
5/05/2010
9:37:40 PM
you make it sound like they're the only people that have ever bolted!! thousands of dollars sounds a bit excessive. i rebolted a 15-route quarry for $140. its more the time than the cost!!

so how is it carters earning money at their expense by doing everyone a massive service, one that very few choose to take on!
hipster
5/05/2010
10:10:35 PM
Bullying is a bit of a harsh word isn't it. How hard is it to give him some information about route grades and where they go if he rings up and asks for it? This all sounds like sour grapes from the days when you and Simon wrote a guide together.
What were their "terms" then? My mail is they asked for money to pay for the bolts they put in. Didn't you ask for money too for info on an area you've recently bolted?

egosan
5/05/2010
10:13:32 PM
On 5/05/2010 phm wrote:
>@kieran - as I said before: my friends never asked for money.

Well, phm, the ten million dollar question remains what did they ask for?

>My friends have no problem with publishing the information
>about their new routes, as long as it happens on their terms.

>there is no problem with publishing these routes, as long as
>the terms of my friends are respected.

Vague references to respect and terms are just that vague. Care to add any specifics? Maybe your friends should speak up, phm. I have no doubt that you are attempting to lobby for them in good faith, however, you are currently doing them no favors. Just giving us all the impression that some mob of prima donnas are upset their sandbox is getting crowded.

 Page 1 of 9. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180
There are 180 messages in this topic.

 

Home | Guide | Gallery | Tech Tips | Articles | Reviews | Dictionary | Forum | Links | About | Search
Chockstone Photography | Landscape Photography Australia | Australian Landscape Photography

Please read the full disclaimer before using any information contained on these pages.



Australian Panoramic | Australian Coast | Australian Mountains | Australian Countryside | Australian Waterfalls | Australian Lakes | Australian Cities | Australian Macro | Australian Wildlife
Landscape Photo | Landscape Photography | Landscape Photography Australia | Fine Art Photography | Wilderness Photography | Nature Photo | Australian Landscape Photo | Stock Photography Australia | Landscape Photos | Panoramic Photos | Panoramic Photography Australia | Australian Landscape Photography | Mothers Day Gifts | Gifts for Mothers Day | Mothers Day Gift Ideas | Ideas for Mothers Day | Wedding Gift Ideas | Christmas Gift Ideas | Fathers Day Gifts | Gifts for Fathers Day | Fathers Day Gift Ideas | Ideas for Fathers Day | Landscape Prints | Landscape Poster | Limited Edition Prints | Panoramic Photo | Buy Posters | Poster Prints