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araps 9-12th april


Robb

2-Apr-2004
4:17:46 PM

the most ive ever seen there is 70 (easter 1998). easter is a social time at the moon. the rest of the year we basically have it to ourselves. yipee.
compare <70 at the moon to 1000+ at araps . mmmmmm tough choice.

tastybigmac

2-Apr-2004
7:31:27 PM

yeah, araps is the place not to be at easter unless you like to party and fight for the climbs. i will be there with tons of begginers though. its not like i climb anymore anyway. just give me a boulder and i'm a happy boy.


Clancy

4-Apr-2004
11:31:54 AM

Araps is probably going to be a bit crazy but if you lead harder than about 15 and dont mind walking for about 10min rather than 5 it shouldnt be too much of a problem...just dont plan on doing Bard, Muldoon or any of the long easy routes :)

I was there last year (think the ranger said 1400 people over the weekend) it calmed down signifiacantly by tuesday/wednesday, and being a lazy uni student i am going to be there for the fortnight anyway...


Tel

5-Apr-2004
11:21:19 AM

In looking at the mentz, tempest guide to araiples and the link posted http://www.natimuk.com/arapiles.net/boulder__3.html ( _2, _1) I am wondering a few things.
1, the link says Sooty is a project, I gather that means it is yet to be finished, so how do you know if you have got the finish on it correct?
2, there is a lot of problems that don't seem to have names is there a particular reason for this ?
3, If I start a project, how many moves in the sequence are you supposed to have ? and... then attaching a name to project/problem is there some protocol which needs to be followed?
I know it seems I am getting ahead of myself, I don't think I will be trailing a blaze of glory at araps. But I am interested to understand the inner workings if you like of how it all comes together.
thanks
tel
postcript:
an example for my already long winded post.
Camels, Chockstone gathering,
Up a little from Grey Arete, and down a little from Split Images, I found a likely target.
a seated start left foot edge, right foot small nubbin(?), hands in a thin crack , pull up to a kind of standing position, right hand to a 2 finger pocket , left crosses over to a good edge ( a little sharp though), lean to the right, right hand side pull on a shallow edge, right foot smear in a shallow depression, left hand crosses high to lip/jug, left foot flags to pocket, match hands and feet, then right foot jams crack, lean again to right and reach around to to a good Jug(?), then to finish pull yourself around and get left foot in the same crack, (left hand can be free) and then drop down...done
I played with sequence for around an hour.... it was pretty cool, no idea how hard it would be in terms of grade....

now how would I apply this to questions above naming, grading, is this a real project/ problem
thanks again
tel

dalai

5-Apr-2004
11:35:54 AM

Hi Tel, my interpretation on your questions (you could have asked away yesterday)
1. Project means the line has not been climbed yet as you suggest. As the first ascent hasn't been done yet, then there is no defined finish yet. On this problem the finish would be the top of the block via the line of least resistance up this section of wall. Other boulder problems may not neccessarily finish at the boulders top but rather an obvious hold. ie sissy crag in Sydney where problems finish at an obvious break.
2. Names on boulder problems. Since bouldering was primarily just for training in the old days rather than as the superior form of climbing it truely is, many problems were just lines done and not named. Many names if given were also not documented till recently and the names may have been forgotten unfortunately anyway.
3. There are no defined number of moves on boulder problems. Can be as brief as a single move or even just a pull on problem.

If you do the next great new problem - photo's and write up in rock and on Chockstone is the way to go... though more likely would be to send any new problems/amendments to the guide book writers for updating the guide.

Cheers Martin


Tel

5-Apr-2004
12:23:00 PM

thanks martin, unfortunately I didn't think of these until after I was home and reflecting on the project/problem I added as a postscript above

stinkingoat

6-Apr-2004
12:03:44 AM

> Since bouldering was primarily just for
>training in the old days

I think the people who did the first ascents of those problems would disagree with you. (or should I say I know)
>
>If you do the next great new problem - photo's and write up in rock and
>on Chockstone is the way to go... though more likely would be to send any
>new problems/amendments to the guide book writers for updating the guide.

Better still, dont name it, dont grade it, just walk away with a sense of satifaction within yourself. JUST LIKE IN THE OLD DAYS!!!!!

Thats what bouldering was all about before grades were invented. (Bouldering has been around since before rock climbing. Grades are very new to the scene)
>
>Cheers Martin


Tel

6-Apr-2004
10:02:55 AM

On 6/04/2004 stinkingoat wrote:
>
>I think the people who did the first ascents of those problems would disagree
>with you. (or should I say I know)
>>
>Better still, dont name it, dont grade it, just walk away with a sense
>of satifaction within yourself. JUST LIKE IN THE OLD DAYS!!!!!
>
>Thats what bouldering was all about before grades were invented. (Bouldering
>has been around since before rock climbing. Grades are very new to the
>scene)

Sorry can't say that I agree with you stinkingoat, I think boulder problems should have names and grades the same as other climbs do. Look at the Castle hill article in the latest rock, the bouldering looks amazing, and in the issue before, the pics of Richard 'Sticky' Dale bouldering at font, there are problem names at these places that I would like to add to my little list at thecrag.com. I appreciate things were different in the old days, but by giving problems names and grades it helps give us (me) a yardstick to measure ourselves against and when discussing particular problems, by giving them a name it makes them easliy identifiable.
As an example I 'll use Serpentine on taipan wall, now Mr Malcolm HB Matheson, probalby could have walked away with just a sense of satisfaction, but then we all miss out and fail to appreciate the achievement.
Progressions in rock climbing and bouldering aren't always ruinous to its historical integrity.
Having said all that, I'll probalby be seen as a smartarse, but the project/problem at Camels (posted above), I'll name ..."GONE ARE THE DAYS!!!!!" and grade it V1 - V2, someone else may amend the grade,...... maybe.
terry

dalai

6-Apr-2004
10:46:56 AM

Hi Stinkingoat,

thanks for the reply. Just to clarify to some of your comments though

On 6/04/2004 stinkingoat wrote:

>I think the people who did the first ascents of those problems would disagree
>with you. (or should I say I know)

my reply to Tel's questions was headed with 'my interpretation' and 'primarily' in regards to bouldering only as training. There were a few enlightened people already back then who saw bouldering as a means in itself.

>Better still, dont name it, dont grade it, just walk away with a sense
>of satifaction within yourself. JUST LIKE IN THE OLD DAYS!!!!!

My comment about sending the details to rock was a little tongue in cheek - the guidebook writers not.
As for not wanting problems listed, it was over a decade ago when Nati local Dave Mudie and I spoke about a bouldering guide to Arapiles. In fact I still think I have his sketches at home somewhere.

>Thats what bouldering was all about before grades were invented. (Bouldering
>has been around since before rock climbing. Grades are very new to the
>scene)

Grades new to the scene?? Bleausard's in Fontainebleau derived the font grades in the 1930 - 40's and John Gill developed his B scale in the 50's. There is documentation even earlier making mention to problems being given basic grades.

Cheers Martin

stinkingoat

6-Apr-2004
1:48:19 PM

Gile indeed did invent a simple grading system (B1,B2,B3) I could go into it further but im sure that you already understand the vage nature of this system. But it was only applicable to him as nobody else came close to his ability, even to this day, some of his problems still await a second ascent.

As for the Font system, only the odd few people with the desire to chase numbers bothered as most boulders were happy to wonder around doing the coloured circuits. As I was on several occasions in both the '80s and '90s.

John Sherman regrets inventing the V system( which he only started as a bit of a joke) because in his opinion it has destroyed bouldering by attracting a different mind set of people, or at least thats what he told me.

Grading systems in bouldering are not needed, either you can get up it or you cant. Going to the Buttermilks in the '80s with nothing more than directions of turn right at Bishop, was one of the best 2 weeks I've spent bouldering
(and my 2 friends and I had the place to ourselves for the entire time, makes you drool thinking about that doesn't it Martin)

The idea for a piles bouldering guide was toyed with by a few locals over the years. As yet there is still no comprehensive list of areas let alone problems, and I hope it stays that way ( which it should as some of the better areas are only know to a few people) so as not to have the same trashed areas like in central gully [check out the high tide mark on the slime boulder] and what has happened to stapilton.

Tel, if names and grades are important to you the so be it but do yourself a favour, as this is your first trip to the piles. Leave the guide book in the pack and wonder around being blown away by the awesome bouldering there. Oh and you can use any holds you like, snigger.


nmonteith

6-Apr-2004
2:13:08 PM

On my first visit to the Arapiles when i was 17 (i drove the 24 hours from QLD) - i spent the first two days bouldering as i had seen nothing like it in QLD and NSW. It just inspires fun on the small stone. I totally ignored all the roped mega classic as the boudlering was just so simple and fun. I certainly didn't need a guide to enjoy myself - or grades - or a crash pad.


Rupert

6-Apr-2004
2:17:40 PM

yep I know what you mean - I was lucky enough about 10 years ago to have 5 days bouldering at Arapiles - during which time I saw ONE other person. No guidebook, no crashmat, just me and the wind and the rocks and the spooky atmosphere of the place. It was an amazing experience that I hope I'll never forget.

stinkingoat

6-Apr-2004
2:35:56 PM

good to hear that there are still some people who understand what bouldering is all about!


nmonteith

6-Apr-2004
2:44:25 PM

...then i came back a year later with my friends and we made a rad video with a great drum and bass soundtrack which featured us dynoing and campussing up all the V10+ classics whilst we wore beanies and baggy pants in the middle of summer. We also hired about 20 onlookers to act as a cheer squad to make the video more exciting. It was great.

stinkingoat

6-Apr-2004
2:58:34 PM

oh is that what you were doing, thought it was a rap video! and I was one of the hired onlookers!

dalai

6-Apr-2004
3:03:10 PM

I too have had wonderful experiences bouldering at Arapiles sans guidebook or mat over the years. But having some sort of guide (the big book of problems describes most of the areas anyway now) if on limited time is a great asset to point you at the better problems.

As for whether a guide helps/hinders environmentally...the Slime boulder has the tide mark now as most people only know of Lower Central Gully and maybe those boulders below the Pharos, and therefore they bear the brunt. If people scattered to other good areas it would potentially minimise some of the damage. Stapylton doesn't have a print guide, yet is seeing definite signs of use. Maybe a guide there would also help instead of everyone only going to Andersons or the Cave.

I have also spent time at Font and have enjoyed the circuits (though the colours are problems in the same grade range). Even having the Font guide, I have enjoyed the pleasure of wandering around just trying the lines that took my fancy. But I have also read through the guide before going to an area and gone by it's recommendations. Both approaches have positives.

Since John Sherman has published what I would still say is the best bouldering guidebook anywhere (to Hueco Tanks). I am curious whether he has only come out with his condemnation of grades only to avoid the infamy that his system has given him and is saying this to minimise the attention he still may receive?
I don't see the popularity of bouldering or change of attitudes is because of grades. Just that more people realise how amazing bouldering is and with a larger cross section of people now bouldering comes diverse attitudes.

PS I am jealous of two weeks at the Buttermilks without the crowds.

Though I may be getting a couple of weeks at Font again this year... with guidebook firmly in hand and only crowded on the weekends.


Tel

6-Apr-2004
5:30:25 PM

It is amazing how one small paragraph can make you feel about one inch tall, so I will cop that one on the chin gracefully.
Now that I have dusted myself off.......
I' d be happy if you wanted to go into it further as I thought your post was very interesting and I would like to know more.

As far as names and grades, the analogy, "how do you know where you are going if you don't know where you been", is how I was, have and are looking at it. So as unqualified as I may be ( meaning it is obviously evident that yourself, stinkingoat, and others, martin, know more than I), I still stand behind what I said as names and grades being a yardstick.

Surely it is not a bad thing to be throwing yourself around a project that has, for eg, been graded V6, to see how your going or again try something graded that you know is above what you have done before. And if it is a bad thing why? as the overall tone of your post suggests that I am missing something in my perspective of bouldering.

With regard to araps, I figured I'd be pretty well much wandering around by myself, so as for then leaving the guide book in the pack, well..back to the analogy......, the guide book gives me a start point I guess is what I am saying.

this has been sitting for over an hour and I have to admit I still have trouble understanding what is wrong with grades and names. For myself I don't think I am a number chaser looking for recognition. I do however like to keep a record of what I have done, tried, failed etc, I also don't mind sharing my triumphs and failures. Concellations and congratulations I see as part of the bigger picture, the "we are all in this together" vibe, maybe my ideas of the climbing and the people therein are a little grandiose. With your knowledge of history re :Gile, isn't there some part of you that would be exhilarated at possibly doing a second ascent of one of his problems.
terry

it seems in the interem there has been a few more posts so I'll go with this one for now and then look at the rest
cheers
terry


nmonteith

6-Apr-2004
6:16:25 PM

I find bouldering V grades depressing. I cannot boulder harder than V3 on a REALLY good day. It just makes me sad.

Duncan

6-Apr-2004
6:56:35 PM

Neil, there is no way I could possibly climb as hard as you do on routes, but I can boulder up to about v5. I think it may be just that you don't boulder as much as route climb? I am not strong by any stretch of the imagination, I just enjoy bouldering, so I do it lots. Living in Sydney helps with that.


Tel

7-Apr-2004
10:41:12 AM

When I feel out of my depth I try and find out more information, so I did some searching on Gill and Sherman.... I found an interview with Sherman and in it he does state, as stinkingoat mentioned that he does regret the Vgrade system,

V: I don't regret writing the guide, but I do regret introducing V-grades. Before they came along the vast majority of boulder problems were put up for their aesthetics or challenge,. . . Personally, I gave up using V-grades around 7 years ago.

Prior to that statement, the question asked,

MR: Who or what is responsible for the resurgence or renaissance in bouldering? V: . . . Seriously, I'd say the introduction of V-grades and sketchpads have a lot to do with it. V-grades give people the yardstick of success they so desire to compare themselves with others. Sketchpads remove a large degree of pain and risk. Those two things have made the sport more mainstream-accessible. I also think a lot of climbers got turned on to how fun bouldering is at Hueco Tanks. They then went home with a new respect and psyche for the sport that they applied to their local areas.

From reading the interview my interpretations are that John Sherman used his Vgrade system and now he longer feels he has to so he doesn't. I didn't really glean anything that would comdemn grading except when chipping holds, but that applies to climbing also. From what I read of John Gill I really didn't find too much in respect to what we have been discussing.
I feel that once again , it is horses for courses, as Martin mentioned there are positives, to having a guide, and as you mentioned stinkingoat, there are positives in just enjoying the experience. Others such as Neil it seems have done both. As for me .... let you know when I get back from araps.

John Sherman interview:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/athlete/index.php?name=vermin

John Gills' website:
http://www.johngill.net/

thanks it is nice to learn a little more
cheers
terry

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