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Tiger Wall - Dribble Bolting?


nmonteith

21-Aug-2009
3:04:35 PM

How often do you go there if you havn't seen the FHs on Swinging? I don't see the point of choppity chop chop if you hardly even climb there. At least do the nasty work on your local crags where you can police it.

Wendy

21-Aug-2009
3:06:37 PM

Yeah, those nasty, turn Araps into a sport crag locals will just replace all your hard work when you leave.

kieranl

21-Aug-2009
3:06:38 PM

On 21/08/2009 One Day Hero wrote:

>Goddamnit! How am I going to find any time to climb down there amongst
>all the work which needs doing?
Who is this idiot?

One Day Hero

21-Aug-2009
3:08:15 PM

Maybe natural gear climbing is a construct of the gear companies to increase their sales and the progressive thing to do is ringbolt every route at araps

kieranl

21-Aug-2009
3:09:22 PM

Enogh of this fool's dribble. I'm going for a walk at the mount.

One Day Hero

21-Aug-2009
3:10:31 PM

Umm, spent all of May there. Just didn't get on that route this time around


IdratherbeclimbingM9

21-Aug-2009
3:11:56 PM

On 21/08/2009 kieranl wrote:
>On 21/08/2009 One Day Hero wrote:
>
>>Goddamnit! How am I going to find any time to climb down there amongst
>>all the work which needs doing?
>Who is this idiot?

This is where the thread gets hijacked into 'anonymous vs known users re validity of opinions' thread ...

Wendy

21-Aug-2009
3:15:49 PM

On 21/08/2009 One Day Hero wrote:

>
>Bolts are being put in for convenience then sold to us as 'safety'. This
>offends me because I like to see as little metal in the rock as possible
>while still not wishing for things to be too dangerous. I also like to
>do arcane things such as rig belays, scramble down, find descent options,
>solve problems. I believe these are very useful things to learn and I believe
>the environment at araps 15yrs ago was conducive to gaining these skills........cohesive
>and constructive as, eh bro?
>

As this is half an effort to say something sensible .... Most anchors here were put in to halt erosion on the descent routes. Only a few are being "sold" to you as safety. There are still plenty of belays to rig, and obscure routes to do involving epic route and descent finding. These are all very useful skills in the wider world of climbing, and you can also do plenty of them at less busy crags in the Grampians. Araps has LOTS of traffic and is being looked after (note: looked after, as in, cared for, protected, damage minimisation) with this in mind.

>But I've said all of that before and Kierans drill continues to whirr.
>I don't think pulling his bolts out will stop him but talking has achieved
>nothing so chopping is the next thing to try.

In, out, in, out ... I think history all over the world has demonstrated in ineffectiveness of this approach. Also the general disaproval of maverick action.

Wendy

21-Aug-2009
4:04:37 PM

On 21/08/2009 One Day Hero wrote:

>
>I don't buy this at all, sorry. Most climbs at araps have been extensively
>defoliated. 'Erosion' is part of what happens at popular places. Our point
>of difference here is that you are prepared to accept 'erosion' on routes
>but not on descents. I am prepared to accept 'erosion' on routes and on
>descents. I fully support the erosion control measures such as steps in
>gullys etc.

I would have thought it was obvious that rock "erodes" far less than gullies and that "defoliation" on rock has less follow-on effect than "defoliation" removing grasses and shrubs which are holding the dirt in place.

>Where were the erosion problems which required rings on Swinging,
>Christian Crack,

Freely admit I am unaware of the justification of these ones.

>Trojan, Lamplighter, Chinese Algebra, the corner below
>Anxiety?

Most of these were replacing ugly old bits of tat that just got added to incrementally in an effort to make them safe. I think that's a good idea too.

>
>The bolt war problems are caused in equal parts by the "in's" and the
>"out's". I consider the addition of all of the above bolts to be maverick
>action. Are you somehow suggesting that unconsulted adding by Kieran is
>morally superior to unconsulted chopping by me?

I'm not sure that Kieran is responible for any of the bolts you are currently worked up about. Maybe you should check out these things before blasting off at him. Some of the rebolting at Araps was freely discussed (sorry if you missed out, but, you after all, weren't here). Strangely enough, some of us even heard from Simey about the offending bolts before he put them in. Others, I might have simply missed out on (i am after all regularly not here over winter) and some may have been done inappropriately. Araps still has a history of bolts and other odd anchors mid cliff and top of cliff, so it's not that new. See Toad in the hole, British beat, no future, coming on chris, Tannin, horn piece and so on so forth.

21-Aug-2009
4:46:48 PM

On 21/08/2009 One Day Hero wrote:

>Ummmm, no. I don't think I'll bugger off. Just because you live in Nati,
>it doesn't mean you own the crag. I just moved to Wollongong, does that
>mean I can now do whatever the f--- I please at Nowra because I'm a local?

How would we be able to tell the difference? (Ducks quickly and puts hands over head. I've never been there and therefore don't know what I'm talking about.)

I've got five years longer at Araps than Kieran and there were NO rap anchors and lower-offs had never been heard of when I were a lad. You rapped off a bollard after doing Trapeze and you sometimes did Trapeze again to retrieve your rope


Sarah Gara

21-Aug-2009
4:58:57 PM

>Fish boy.wrote: Even if people die in certain places climbing Sara, it doesn't mean we have >to put bolts in. Honestly, who cares if it makes beginners feel safer? I'm a little above a >beginner and feel unsafe/scared often, it is ME that has to step it up, not the rock that has >to be damaged!
>Get out there and take responsibility for yourselves....

i agree in principle I'm against bolting But those bolts are there now. and i sure as hell couldn't get 40 diff placements at the belay...

I mean even if the bolts were chopped the rock would still have been damaged. What does the rock look like after bolts removed?

-On 21/08/2009 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 21/08/2009 Sarah Gara wrote:
>>Those bolts will make a lot of beginners feel a lot safer at a didfficult
>>place to put gear. fair enough I coped but I had sols rack if I was
>on my own i wouldn't have.

>A couple of questions to satisfy my curiosity. ☺
>
>Would you have chosen to do this climb if you were using your own normal
>rack?

>[I note you wrote on 18/08/09;
>>Had i been climbing on my rack -one set of nuts and hexs]

No i probably wouldn't have attempted the climb on my rack - I would have stayed at the organ pipes and done some shorter routes.

>With the benefit of hindsight, do you think that climb could be done differently
>by yourself (and still feel reasonably comfortable/safe), regarding how
>you use the pro available on your own rack?
>☺

I think I would still place the same ammount of gear. I get scared easy and that climb was well within my climbing abilty but I like placing gear...

Was it on here that someone wrote... " if it's below your waist it's not a runner" -I, most of the time live by that philosophy.

Right I'm gonna go get drunk! Catch you all later - don't post too much guys... It takes too long to catch up and I'm really busy at work at the mo.

Happy climbing. x


IdratherbeclimbingM9

21-Aug-2009
5:06:46 PM

Thanks for the reply.

Wendy

21-Aug-2009
5:10:24 PM

On 21/08/2009 BA wrote:
> when I were a lad. You
>rapped off a bollard after doing Trapeze and you sometimes did Trapeze
>again to retrieve your rope

Ah, the inconvenience!! I was contemplating the topic of convenience to distract myself from the menial tasks of sweeping and cutting wood and realised climbing is full of things for our convenience (and to compensate for our incompetence). We have campgrounds because we can't do minimal impact camping. We have flushing toilets because we can't crap in the bush. We have guidebooks cause we can't look at the cliff and make a reasonable assessments. We have cars because we can't be bothered catching public transport/hitching/walking/riding to the cliff. We have friends and sticky rubber cause we can't climb in hobnail boots and place machine nuts. Chalk cause we get psyched out by sweaty hands. Belay devices cause we're to wussy to go waist belays anymore. Ad infitum. Where do we stop?

kieranl

21-Aug-2009
5:38:33 PM

On 21/08/2009 One Day Hero wrote:
>
>But I've said all of that before and Kierans drill continues to whirr.
>I don't think pulling his bolts out will stop him but talking has achieved
>nothing so chopping is the next thing to try.
I didn't see this comment before. Has One Day Hero got my drill? I thought it was sitting unused in the garage.

kieranl

21-Aug-2009
5:56:11 PM

If you put bolts in you have to be prepared to cop it if someone takes them out because the think you've overstepped the mark. But I really can't stomach someone coming from interstate on an occasional visit and imposing their will.

Hermes

21-Aug-2009
7:29:18 PM

One day hero wrote:
"I fully support the erosion control measures such as steps in gullys etc. "

I think we've missed the big issue here guys. Why are we sitting here quibbling about tiny pieces of metal in the rocks when people out there are pouring concrete in our gullies and building large unsightly piles of rock on the side of tracks? I for one will be bringing a jackhammer next time i visit the crag rather than an angle grinder. Get serious guys!! :-P

gtempest

21-Aug-2009
8:58:48 PM

Just a few points I'd like to make:

1. Noddy and Ed Neve had a good concept in the mid 1970s (a direct route up the right side of Tiger Wall) but the Dribble was a fairly worthless route in its original state. It was covered in moss had heaps of loose rock and was - understandably - quickly forgotten.

2. During the research and re-shooting of images required for the second edition of Arapiles Selected Climbs Simon and I discussed the possibility of resurrecting a route or two on the right side of Tiger Wall. On the day we straightened out Deathwatch Beetle Simon told me that he had done the Dribble a couple of times recently and that somewhere under the mank was a good route waiting to be discovered. He came back on a bunch of other occasions, cleaning up the route, knocking off all the loose rock and working out the best way for people to enjoy it. Finally he told me that it was definitely worth adding to our Selected Climbs guide but that he'd decided to place two bolts at the top of the third pitch. His reasoning was that except for that particular belay the route had excellent gear which as easy to place. I distinctly remember him saying that it was a fiddly belay (for grade 11 climbers) and out of character with the rest of the route. Since I've known Simon I've come to respect his judgment when it comes to such matters. I don't think I've ever met anyone in all my years of tying into a rope that is so pedantic about belay setups or general safety. I've also seen the tragic results of less experienced climbers using a 'fiddly belay' that failed and it isn't a pretty sight. As far as I know Noddy had no objections and I certainly didn't feel that two bolts on the third belay of the Dribble was any big deal in the scheme of things, especially since Arapiles would now have another classic climb which would help redirect ever-increasing climber numbers off Syrinx and The Eighth.

3. In a nutshell. We now have a really good 120m route up Tiger Wall that grade 11 climbers can thoroughly and safely enjoy themselves on. Simon put a lot of work and energy into getting that route ready for the guide and with no real credit. Simon does not place bolts on a whim and I know he thought carefully about it.

4. There are far worse transgressions I can think of than two bolts on the third belay of the Dribble and I don't think Arapiles has suddenly become any less a crag for it.

5. However, I do think that discussions such as these are valuable and are especially important to anyone considering placing bolts (particularly those new to climbing). The real message here is that ANY bolt placed should be carefully considered as it may well be questioned. And isn't that the way it should be?

Glenn


howzithanging?

21-Aug-2009
10:13:47 PM

AND THATS THE END OF THAT CHAPTER


Sarah Gara

22-Aug-2009
5:19:33 PM

I BLOODY HOPE SO.

Cheers Glen x


IdratherbeclimbingM9

22-Aug-2009
9:23:49 PM

On 21/08/2009 howzithanging? wrote:
>AND THATS THE END OF THAT CHAPTER

~> till the next ^ post came along!

There are 279 messages in this topic.