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Tiger Wall - Dribble Bolting?

tastybigmac

27-Aug-2009
5:20:56 PM

wallwombat and m9, are they before and after shots of someone reading this useless thread?

Wendy

27-Aug-2009
5:25:10 PM

On 27/08/2009 ajfclark wrote:
>And we've all heard the saying, which is true as well as witty,
>That a camel is a horse that was designed by a committee.
>
>from Peter and the Commissar by Allan Sherman

Is that why it couldn't carry Evan's soul fast enough?

Wendy

27-Aug-2009
5:33:48 PM

I'm not sure if I'm in tears of laughter over those bunnies or despair over the 30 posts this thread grew by whilst I was at work .... Currently coming in at 14th and rapidly heading for the top 10.


Sarah Gara

27-Aug-2009
6:52:50 PM

On 27/08/2009 evanbb wrote:
>On 27/08/2009 nmonteith wrote:
>>But if they vote NOT to put an extra bolt in, then someone falls off
>and
>>gets injured due to there not being a bolt
>
>This is a bit old, but I doubt this would ever be the case. How could
>you argue that someone died because a bolt wasn't there?

I can't believe i'm getting drawn into this again.... sigh...

That's my argument for leaving the bolt on dribble -and not cos who ever removed it would get sued but because how bad would you feel in 3yrs if someone died on (or because of BOREDOM reading this thread) on dribble.

highly unlikely though because you could put up my lovely new swish tent on that ledge. x


Sarah Gara

27-Aug-2009
6:57:14 PM

On 27/08/2009 Wendy wrote:
>I'm not sure if I'm in tears of laughter over those bunnies or despair
>over the 30 posts this thread grew by whilst I was at work .... Currently
>coming in at 14th and rapidly heading for the top 10.

I know I nearly cried.

I like the bunnies, can we have more bunnies. x


wallwombat

27-Aug-2009
7:39:26 PM

On 27/08/2009 Sarah Gara wrote:

>I like the bunnies, can we have more bunnies. x

Here's one that just read this thread.


Sarah Gara

27-Aug-2009
11:44:56 PM

On 27/08/2009 wallwombat wrote:

>
>

time to put this thread to bed. boing said zebedee x


Zebedee

28-Aug-2009
12:02:31 AM

On 27/08/2009 Sarah Gara wrote:
>On 27/08/2009 wallwombat wrote:
>
>time to put this thread to bed. boing said zebedee x
Nah, I don't say boing. I say debate bolting practices till your dying day. But watch out for the yellow acid...or is that yellow snow. Give both a miss to be safer.


Sarah Gara

28-Aug-2009
8:52:43 AM

There's been a post deleted from this... I think we should form a committee to investigate...has it been chopped? I responded to a post with the second pic of a bunny-where has it gone? x


muki

28-Aug-2009
10:53:42 PM

On 26/08/2009 otmab wrote:

>Over time, you realise that there aren't any clearly defined rules. This
>seems all the more surprising,
>because, apart from the significance of The Arapiles worldwide, it's also
>in a state park.

wasn't always a state park

>Why isn't there a committee that you need to contact if you want to make
>a change to the Arapiles?
>It definitely wouldn't be the VCC. It'd be a small group of volunteers
>in Natimuk. If you wanted to put
>a bolt in (etc.) you'd have to talk to the committee. If you didn't,
>your bolts would be ripped out.

been tried the meeting was a shambles and ended in a slinging match between those that wanted to
replace the rusting junk with reliable modern anchors, and those who wanted the mount to remain the
way it was when they were still able to climb, like a shrine to themselves or something

>Small, local committees for local issues can work extremely well. They're
>functional, and efficient.

very efficient, its called the NBF and after the failed attempt at some form of consensus, they now do
things the way that they should be done, with new for old replacement and when possible the actual
reduction of the original bolt count when re-equiping a climb.

>I wouldn't advocate this for other crags - but the Arapiles is special.
> It's a treasure, in a global sense,

why not its done very well in Europe with the council footing the bill so the local crag/cliff has the best
most modern set ups possible.

>and I want my son, and his children, to experience it in the same way
>I have.

now you are starting to sound like the miscreants from the meeting, just try to remember that the very
first ascents on the mount were done with steel pitons and fixed gear, the mount is primarily a trad
destination, due to it's abundance of easy trad classics, but the equally classic harder lines involve
bolts, be they total sport climbs or more usually mixed climbs.
just because there are more trad climbs than bolted climbs does not mean that this is a trad "only"
destination and that some trad tyrant can gee everyone up to rip out all bolts on the mount.
the removal by said tyrants is usually done under cover of darkness for fear of discovery, and with a
certain amount of fanatical anger, leading to a hack job that permanently scars the rock more than any
bolt ever could, and I've seen some shockers believe me! debate is fine but when people get
fanatical/egocentric about their "opinions" then all debate ceases and a circular argument develops.


muki

28-Aug-2009
10:56:43 PM

Now where is that hide topic button that rod so thoughtfully provided for those of us who are just sick of
the same S#!t going around in circles

otmab

29-Aug-2009
1:02:51 PM

On 28/08/2009 bomber pro wrote:
>Now where is that hide topic button that rod so thoughtfully provided for
>those of us who are just sick of
>the same S#!t going around in circles

Here

otmab

29-Aug-2009
1:06:18 PM

DRIBBLING

Terrified that the Dribble thread fall off the home page, I'm going to inject a serious post amongst the
behatted rodents.

Firstly, you 'Rats Asses' (See this link for definition of
Chockstone tribes) who are sick of this thread, or feel that it's going 'around in circles', f**k off.
There's a whole world of internet porn out there (with and without rodents) to wrap your heads around.

Some of you seem to think I'm advocating forming a committee to decide what should happen to the
bolts on Dribble. I'm not. Boy that'd be a fun committee though. Could someone nominate me? We'll
need at least 15 others before we have a 'quorum'. If only someone could figure out how to print this
thread, and do so prior to the inaugural meeting.

I'm also not suggesting the formation of an 'Arapilean Safety Committee'. I doubt that any society,
committee, collective, ministry, or other group of people would (or could) take on that absurd
responsibility.

LIABILITY

Some of you are worried about liability and 'insurance'. That's understandable, because in Australia
we're now obsessed with liability and insurance.

Most of us aren't qualified lawyers, and when we talk about this stuff we err (i.e. bulls**t) on the side of
'caution'. I am a qualified lawyer (I don't, and never will practice, and won't give legal advice on what to
do about your drug-related charge).

Let's assume there's a group that makes (legally non-binding) decisions on the preservation of
Arapiles. Here's a few reasons why they won't get sued if someone dies (there are many more)
- First, and most importantly, they don't have any money.
- They don't own Arapiles.
- There are *far* too many links in the chain of causation between a decision to not put in a bolt, and a
climber dying (including major decision points such as the climber deciding to scale the route in the
first place, fully aware of the risks).
- They have no mandate to enforce their decisions other than social influence.

But, don't believe me - research it yourself and look up climbing related lawsuits (outdoors). Years
ago, a climber's family tried to sue Yosemite National Park over a rock fall. It's not particularly
relevant, because YNP isn't a community group, and the issue was park infrastructure that YNP was
legally accountable for. Anyway, the judge threw it out.

By the way, how many times has Safer Cliffs been sued?

otmab

29-Aug-2009
1:07:09 PM

'COMMITTEE'

Some of you are obviously put off by the term 'committee'. I agree, it's a scary word, especially as it's
understood in Australian and English culture. They don't get anything done, committees, and they're
full of pontificating wankers (like us) waving their dicks around. So, let's not call it a committee. Let's
call it a 'group' of people, less than 5 people.

To make their purpose clear, let's call them the Arapiles Preservation Group. If you want to make a
change to a belay, etc., there's a shared understanding that you should talk to them first, otherwise,
your careful bolting, belay building, etc. will be undone.

'Shared understanding? Who waves a wand and grants the climbing world with that shared
understanding?' It wouldn't happen overnight, that's for sure. But, if the APG is in the guidebooks, if
it's on signs around camp, if it's on the internet, and if the right people are on it, there will be a shared
understanding.

'Isn't that Parks Victoria / the VCC / the army / someone else's job?' No, these groups don't get
involved. Contrary to popular belief, it's not simply because of ''potential liability'. It's also because
these issues are complicated, local matters.

'How would you get on the group? (translation - how would 'I' get on the group?). Open for nomination
from interested local parties. Like most of us who are involved in the Victorian climbing community, I
can dream up 4 people that ought to be on it instantly. Whether they'd want to be is another
question.... beer at every meeting?

'We're too fragmented, and couldn't decide anything!!' Fragmentation is the norm in communities that
form decision making groups, *and the reason why the groups are formed in the first place*.
Fragmentation is also the reason why we get vigilante bolting, and vigilante chopping, and re-bolting,
and re-chopping, which damages our cliffs. We're all united by the common goal of avoiding this
damage.

I'm not saying it'd be easy to discuss and resolve issues. It's hard to do that, especially at first. It's
easier to be a vigilante. Essentially, the choice is between consensus (which requires energy and
patience), or vigilantism (which requires arrogance and daring). I wonder why we tend to prefer
vigilantism in the climbing world?

'We tried it and it didn't work'. If such attempts have failed in the past, it's almost certainly because to
kick this kind of thing off, you need a good facilitator and organiser - someone who has done this kind
of thing before. 'Not working before' doesn't mean 'Never work'. It is worth considering whether to try
again.

'Many people don't know it(!!), but Araps has always been a mixed climbing area - these f**ckers will
pull out all the bolts!'. No, while there'd be Trad Nazis, there'd also be other people in the group.
Including sport climbing fairies and 'boulder-ers'. This group would be about preserving the existing
climbing environment, and curbing vigilantism.

CONCLUSION

It'll never happen, but nobody's had the gall to say why. The real reason it won't happen is that our
group consists largely of people who would rather 'just do something' than talk about it, face to face
with other people. The sport's emphasis on individual achievement and individual performance is,
perhaps, a partial reason for this. Also, Australian culture doesn't like 'committees' - there's almost a
nancy-boy 'Why'd you have to talk about that first, when you could have just done it' stigma attached
to them. Compare this to Switzerland and Scandinavian countries, where the cultural bias is the
opposite.

Shame really, because it's a lovely crag. Now, bring on the behatted rodents.


wallwombat

29-Aug-2009
2:30:50 PM

Well, Simey, I bet you never thought placing two belay bolts in Dribble would cause f#ckin World War 3.

I put the "f#ckin" in there to appease Otmab who likes to classify everyone.

After all, I am a "Rat's Ass"!

Otmab, where do you fit in to your little behaviourist model?

By the way, dude, that's a really cool name you have there.

Which Harry Potter book is it out of?


ajfclark

29-Aug-2009
2:52:19 PM

Amusingly a google for otmab turns up a torrent for a movie called "Ouch! That's my ass!"


Sarah Gara

29-Aug-2009
4:57:44 PM

I'll talk about it (again) in person. I even went to climb the route to see what I thought instead of just shouting off about it. I'm at the araps next weekend. Come chat in person. Sol, Andrew Simey Steve and I all civily chatted about it. I think as well we decided that the bolts should stay. but I'm sure everyone was open to further disscussion.

Also this community group? isn't that what Simey and whoever else lives in Nati effectively did before the bolts were put there anyway.

Otmab where do you live? I also like that you are being civil. thank you - I don't like it when people are mean. I vote that bunnies should be put after posts that are horrible. x


wallwombat

29-Aug-2009
5:04:41 PM

Was I being mean?


Sarah Gara

29-Aug-2009
5:10:48 PM

no you are generally pleasant. x


wallwombat

29-Aug-2009
5:34:39 PM

Bugger!

There are 288 messages in this topic.