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Tiger Wall - Dribble Bolting?

Wendy

25-Aug-2009
7:33:41 AM

On 25/08/2009 mattjr wrote:
>On 24/08/2009 rodw wrote:
>>Piss take on chocky..then it getting outta hand......that just dosn't
>happen
>>does it ???? :)
>
>Imagine an Arapiles with NO bolts, NO pitons... just traditional climbing..
>NO EXCEPTIONS

Go on, why stop there - no chalk, no sticky rubber, no friends ... just hobnailed boots and hemp rope around the waist. I love that photo in Simey's guide of the early exploration of bard buttress.

mikepatt

25-Aug-2009
9:42:16 AM

On 24/08/2009 brendan wrote:
>so just to ease everyones mind, roberstonja (jason) is not a bolt nazi
>we have been in the Blue mountains for the last 3 days and have had fun
>climbing and clipping bolts, however that is the blue mountains, and every
>area has there own ethics and i think this is where the intial problem
>is. Jason is not complaining about someone painting numbers on a boulder
>in Fontainebleu or bolting a climb in Nowra, he is complaining about someone
>bolting a belay in a traditional climbing area, he obviously feels pissed
>off as someone has taken it upon themselves to bolt a belay on a trad route
>that was not bolted on the first ascent, the route sounds like a peice
>of shit anyway. Its the principal, just like when Robert McMahon & Gerry
>Narkowicz chopped there own abseil anchor on Ben Lomond to prove a principal
>about not bolting on Ben Lomond, if the belay was fiddly and gear hard
>to find when he was preparing the route for the guidebook maybe he should
>have included that in the guidebook, at the end of the day i don't really
>care, i just want araplies to be a trad cliff with strong ethics, look
>at the UK they have tiny little cliffs that are not world class but there
>ethics are what makes the place what it is, its the principle of the debate
>not the actual climb or bolts

Have you visited Gimmer crag in the Lake District Brendan? Deepest trad teritory, yet even there they've installed a bloody great chain to abseil off.. to minimise gully ersosion. Read a bit more about the history of Gimmer and the other Lake District cargs and you'll find lots of abseil inspection, top roing before leading, chipping etc etc... and since when have ethics ever been applied to Arapiles???

mikepatt

25-Aug-2009
12:14:04 PM

On 24/08/2009 brendan wrote:
>so just to ease everyones mind, roberstonja (jason) is not a bolt nazi
>we have been in the Blue mountains for the last 3 days and have had fun
>climbing and clipping bolts, however that is the blue mountains, and every
>area has there own ethics and i think this is where the intial problem
>is. Jason is not complaining about someone painting numbers on a boulder
>in Fontainebleu or bolting a climb in Nowra, he is complaining about someone
>bolting a belay in a traditional climbing area, he obviously feels pissed
>off as someone has taken it upon themselves to bolt a belay on a trad route
>that was not bolted on the first ascent, the route sounds like a peice
>of shit anyway. Its the principal, just like when Robert McMahon & Gerry
>Narkowicz chopped there own abseil anchor on Ben Lomond to prove a principal
>about not bolting on Ben Lomond, if the belay was fiddly and gear hard
>to find when he was preparing the route for the guidebook maybe he should
>have included that in the guidebook, at the end of the day i don't really
>care, i just want araplies to be a trad cliff with strong ethics, look
>at the UK they have tiny little cliffs that are not world class but there
>ethics are what makes the place what it is, its the principle of the debate
>not the actual climb or bolts

p.s. Hope you didn't climb the classic Goldstar at Mt Boyce, Cave Climb at the Neck, Joseph at Piddo, Honey Dip at Zig Zag; Jason may have got upset about the retro bolted lower offs/belays/raps on those routes to name but a few.
Hope you didn't climb at Shipley Upper, Piddo, Zig Zag, Mt York, Bardens etc etc etc lots of retro bolting at those crags there..


wallwombat

25-Aug-2009
12:42:31 PM

On 25/08/2009 mikepatt wrote:
>p.s. Hope you didn't climb the classic Goldstar at Mt Boyce, Cave Climb
>at the Neck, Joseph at Piddo, Honey Dip at Zig Zag; Jason may have got
>upset about the retro bolted lower offs/belays/raps on those routes to
>name but a few.

Sounds like convenience bolting to make guiding the above classics a lot less of a hassle.

I don't particularly agree with this and believe it makes leading those routes a different experience to leading them in their original state.

Is it worth getting my panties in a knot over?

Probably not.

hero

25-Aug-2009
12:44:36 PM

"talking to the people who have been around for a long time (whose memories are still intact despite abuse from illicit substances)"

DAMN!


Climboholic

25-Aug-2009
2:07:13 PM

On 25/08/2009 mikepatt wrote:
> ... and since when have ethics ever been applied to Arapiles???

Great point! Ethics don't apply at Mt Arapiles. Therefore, by the power vested in me by the Grand Wizard of internet forums, that states that my opinion is more worthy than any other, I decree that there will be no further discussion on bolting ethics at the mount EVER AGAIN.

Henceforth, Mount Arapiles will be designated a "safe" crag, where bumblies can frolic without any responsibility for their own safety and judgement. Those adrenaline junkies with a lust for adventure can travel to a place with a stronger trad ethic and zero bolts like... um... the Moon. (Someone would have to write a concerned letter to NASA about removing the Apollo landing craft as they degrade the clean ethic of the area). Lets face it, Mt Arapiles is so poplar these days that if we dont make all the climbs safe someone could GET HURT! We MUST modify the climbs so they are safe for everyone. After all, if you don't like bolts, just don't clip them.


Climboholic

25-Aug-2009
2:13:00 PM

Oh, I forgot about the convenience. Imagine how many climbs you could do a day if you didn't have to stuff around with that annoying trad gear.

But seriously:
- Good work Simey for putting in the time an effort to develop a climb for the enjoyment of others.
- Good work robertsonja for keeping bolting practices honest.

CLEAN ETHICS IS SOMETHING WE SHOULD NEVER STOP STRIVING FOR.

Wendy

25-Aug-2009
3:00:10 PM

On 25/08/2009 Climboholic wrote:

>Those adrenaline junkies with a lust for adventure can travel to a place
>with a stronger trad ethic and zero bolts like... um... the Moon.

I thought there were quite a few bolts at the Moon ...

25-Aug-2009
4:12:21 PM

On 25/08/2009 Wendy wrote:

>I thought there were quite a few bolts at the Moon ...

Chuckle, chuckle

stonetroll

25-Aug-2009
8:00:52 PM

On 25/08/2009 Wendy wrote:
>On 25/08/2009 Climboholic wrote:
>
>>Those adrenaline junkies with a lust for adventure can travel to a place
>>with a stronger trad ethic and zero bolts like... um... the Moon.
>
>I thought there were quite a few bolts at the Moon ...

Nice cCaaatch . . . !


IdratherbeclimbingM9

26-Aug-2009
2:16:49 PM

X-link to the poll thread for the same issue.


Sabu

26-Aug-2009
3:54:13 PM

This is just getting stupid...


ajfclark

26-Aug-2009
3:55:48 PM

You missed one ;-)


Sabu

26-Aug-2009
4:44:01 PM

Yea but it wasn't lined up nicely like the others!

otmab

26-Aug-2009
8:30:11 PM

I am an inexperienced climber (2.5 years). I have been to The Mount only a dozen times. I've often
wondered what the 'rules' are with respect to bolting there. Being a newbie, it's a little confusing.
Mostly, you don't see bolts at all, except, of course, at the very tops of climbs with rap anchors.

But from time to time you do see them - on harder climbs. And sometimes (rarely) on easier climbs.

Being a newbie, you also tend to be a little in awe of the place. It's one of the best places to climb in
the entire world. Many (most?) of the people you meet there have come from overseas or interstate.
You're climbing in the footsteps of giants. Surely, at a place like this, there _must_ be rules about
bolting, and making changes to this amazing rock nature has provided?

Over time, you realise that there aren't any clearly defined rules. This seems all the more surprising,
because, apart from the significance of The Arapiles worldwide, it's also in a state park.

There's a little guidance in the outstanding guidebooks by Simon and Glenn ('Rock Police', p13 2001
edition, p16 2008 edition). The advice is, overall, rightly discouraging to would-be bolters, but it's all,
necessarily, merely suggestions.

Based on (innumerable) previous posts, and especially Glenn's concise and logical post, this newbie
concludes

(this whole thread is a load of bullshit, please stop arguing you're making me sad, it's too late now,
anyone interested in this thread needs to harden up....)

- you shouldn't put bolts on climbs at the Arapiles
- *unless* you're a 'local'
- *and* you've had 'lots' of experience there
- *and* you've discussed it with the FA
- *and* it's 'carefully considered'
- *and* there are potential 'safety concerns' or bolting may make the route worthy of inclusion in a
guidebook

I don't find the above very satisfying, because the Mount is such a special place and I'd like it to stay
that way. I'm worried that without clearly defined rules, over time, it's going to become worse and
worse.

Why isn't there a committee that you need to contact if you want to make a change to the Arapiles?
It definitely wouldn't be the VCC. It'd be a small group of volunteers in Natimuk. If you wanted to put
a bolt in (etc.) you'd have to talk to the committee. If you didn't, your bolts would be ripped out.

Small, local committees for local issues can work extremely well. They're functional, and efficient.

I wouldn't advocate this for other crags - but the Arapiles is special. It's a treasure, in a global sense,
and I want my son, and his children, to experience it in the same way I have.


Sarah Gara

26-Aug-2009
8:33:48 PM

otmab you wrecked the stopping at 200 posts thing.

I can't even be bothered reading anymore.,.. no offence meant. Come help me shop for cars instead on the info for sarah thread.

and I've just spotted a print button at the bottom - If someone wanted to they could print the entire driblle thread.

AHHHHHHH...... x

otmab

26-Aug-2009
9:30:22 PM

>I can't even be bothered reading anymore.,.. no offence meant.

Ha ha, yes it was a long post, no offence taken!

>Come help
>me shop for cars instead on the info for sarah thread.

Na, lost interest in that thread somewhere around this point 'You have to bare in mind that I have no clue
where anything is and how big australia is' :)


Eduardo Slabofvic

26-Aug-2009
10:42:00 PM

On 26/08/2009 otmab wrote:
>Small, local committees for local issues can work extremely well. They're
>functional, and efficient.
>

The only people who would go on the committee are the same people who are spraying bolts all over the
place. Just like Chocky.

Mike Bee

26-Aug-2009
11:11:28 PM

On 26/08/2009 otmab wrote:
>This seems all the more surprising,
>because, apart from the significance of The Arapiles worldwide, it's also
>in a state park.

>-snip-

> - you shouldn't put bolts on climbs at the Arapiles

>-snip-

>Why isn't there a committee that you need to contact if you want to make
>a change to the Arapiles?

>-snip-

>I wouldn't advocate this for other crags - but the Arapiles is special.

The place would be called "The Arapiles" if it was a range of mountains, like "The Flinders" (short for The Flinders Ranges), or "The Gramps" (short for The Grampains National Park). As it is, it's a single mountain, so it's "the Mount", "Mt Arapiles", "Arapiles", "Araps", or "the 'piles" as some like to call it.

Calling the place "The Arapiles" is like saying "I'm off to climb the Everest", or "I'm off to climb the Kosciusko". It's grammatically incorrect (and a pet hate of mine, so that why I'm pulling you up on it).

Sorry, now back to the previously running circular argument!

tastybigmac

26-Aug-2009
11:29:08 PM

it is the arapiles mountains

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