General Climbing Discussion

Author	Tiger Wall - Dribble Bolting?
robertsonja 11-Aug-2009 8:34:43 PM	Dribble is a 4 pitch trad climb on the far right of Tiger wall. On the third belay there are bolts on the back wall of the spacious ledge. My partner and I managed to simply build two solid adjacent SERENE anchors plus place over a dozen placements that could be further used. (I couldn't upload a pic over 42KB, but we managed to surround the two bolts with gear) What are the bolts for? What consultation process did person(s) who placed the two bolts go through? Is this another example of a degraded trad climb?
kp 11-Aug-2009 10:31:47 PM	>What are the bolts for? To clip. >What consultation process did person(s) who placed the two bolts go through? I imagine he consulted his mrs then maybe his drill. >Is this another example of a degraded trad climb? No. From the picture i can only asume its a vast improvement.
simey 11-Aug-2009 10:59:11 PM	On 11/08/2009 robertsonja wrote: >What are the bolts for? Many of the protection placments in your photo are of dubious quality. Given that the belay is at the end of a 50m pitch on a grade 11 route, there is a good chance that prospective leaders will a) have limited gear left to rig an anchor b) have limited experience at linking heaps of dubious placements to create a bombproof anchor. >What consultation process did person(s) who placed the two bolts go through? I consulted with every person who had repeated the route in the last 30 years... namely myself (and the different partners who accompanied me). >Is this another example of a degraded trad climb? No, this is an example of a route that never had a clear route description, was covered in lichen and moss on the first two pitches, had dangerous, loose blocks on the upper pitches and was given zero stars. It took a few days of faffing around with climbing and cleaning it, but the end result is a vastly improved trad climb.
robertsonja 12-Aug-2009 7:52:12 AM	On 11/08/2009 simey wrote: >On 11/08/2009 robertsonja wrote: >>What are the bolts for? >Many of the protection placments in your photo are of dubious quality. >Given that the belay is at the end of a 50m pitch on a grade 11 route, >there is a good chance that prospective leaders will a) have limited gear >left to rig an anchor b) have limited experience at linking heaps of dubious >placements to create a bombproof anchor. If I am placing protection for an anchor, I'll be the judge to the quality of the placement not somebody else months later looking at a 3cm x 3cm photo. So we should bolt all belay stations just in case leaders have limited gear or have limited experience or to increase safety and efficiency - I don't think so! >>What consultation process did person(s) who placed the two bolts go through? >I consulted with every person who had repeated the route in the last 30 >years... namely myself (and the different partners who accompanied me). So again, Simon, you've bolted another anchor station on a trad climb just because you have 30 years experience - that doesn't make sense. That is like saying you have been running commercial trips at Arapiles for x number of years so you have more say or rights than others. No you don't. >>Is this another example of a degraded trad climb? >No, this is an example of a route that never had a clear route description, >was covered in lichen and moss on the first two pitches, had dangerous, >loose blocks on the upper pitches and was given zero stars. It took a few >days of faffing around with climbing and cleaning it, but the end result >is a vastly improved trad climb. > So if the route description not clear, or covered in lichen and doesn't have stars that gives you the right to bolt it? I don't think so. So if there are loose blocks on the pitch you should bolt the belay station? I don't think so. Bolting a belay station on a trad climb where there is adequate protection does not improve it, eg first belay station on Touchstone. Another example of where you have gone trigger happy. Can you please remove these bolts (and the ones on Touchstone)?
nmonteith 12-Aug-2009 8:14:52 AM	On 12/08/2009 robertsonja wrote: > That >is like saying you have been running commercial trips at Arapiles for x >number of years so you have more say or rights than others. No you don't. Yes he does. More experience at the crag = a better understanding of what is working and what isn't.
simey 12-Aug-2009 8:16:27 AM	Regarding the protection placements in your photo. I wasn't basing my assessment on your photo. I was basing it on the fact that I have used many of those placements and didn't think any of them were great. Sure you can link enough of them together to make a decent anchor, but given the reasons I mentioned previously I felt that a bolted belay was not out of place. If I had been trigger happy, why didn't I add bolts to the other three belays or anywhere else in 120m of climbing?
robertsonja 12-Aug-2009 8:21:31 AM	On 12/08/2009 nmonteith wrote: >On 12/08/2009 robertsonja wrote: >> That >>is like saying you have been running commercial trips at Arapiles for >x >>number of years so you have more say or rights than others. No you don't. > >Yes he does. More experience at the crag = a better understanding of what >is working and what isn't. I understand that more experience should equal better understanding - but that is not the case with this issue. A person running commercial trips and who is bolting a trad cliff is naturally going to be slightly biased in favour of commercial considerations, eg easy access/retreat = better value for money/safety for the client. The issue here is that a belay station on a trad climb with adequate protection has been bolted.
robertsonja 12-Aug-2009 8:34:29 AM	On 12/08/2009 simey wrote: >Regarding the protection placements in your photo. I wasn't basing my assessment >on your photo. I was basing it on the fact that I have used many of those >placements and didn't think any of them were great. Sure you can link enough >of them together to make a decent anchor, but given the reasons I mentioned >previously I felt that a bolted belay was not out of place. So if you think the placements are not so great - that does not give you the right to bolt, period. My partner and I spent 5 minutes throwing gear at the wall - we built two bomber anchors but you could easily build half a dozen anchors on that ledge. I removed my anchors, could you please remove yours?
widewetandslippery 12-Aug-2009 8:48:05 AM	On 12/08/2009 robertsonja wrote: >On 12/08/2009 nmonteith wrote: >>On 12/08/2009 robertsonja wrote: > >The issue here is that a belay station on a trad climb with adequate protection >has been bolted. I do not see the issue?
robertsonja 12-Aug-2009 9:01:12 AM	On 12/08/2009 widewetandslippery wrote: >On 12/08/2009 robertsonja wrote: >>On 12/08/2009 nmonteith wrote: >>>On 12/08/2009 robertsonja wrote: > >> >>The issue here is that a belay station on a trad climb with adequate >protection >>has been bolted. > >I do not see the issue? The issue is that style of the climb has been degraded, it negates the need to build a trad anchor on a trad climb in a trad area. There are issues of vandalism, permanent defacing of the rock, style, degrading ethics, the question of why, it sets bad precedent, etc, etc.
dalai 12-Aug-2009 9:08:57 AM	Araps has and always been a mixed gear cliff. It isn't a bolt free area... A simple fact you clearly choose to ignore.
widewetandslippery 12-Aug-2009 9:11:09 AM	I'm willing to stand corrected but Simon has cleaned a choss pile you yourself probally would not of climbed if not for the cleaning. He has put 2 bolts in. You are an anti bolt fundamentalist who like the climate change lot are not going to be reasoned with as you consider yourself right beyond all arguement. And then you start talking about consultation?
robertsonja 12-Aug-2009 9:18:24 AM	On 12/08/2009 dalai wrote: >Araps has and always been a mixed gear cliff. It isn't a bolt free area... I never said that it was bolt free - best practice is to minimise the use of bolts. It is called "ethics". >A simple fact you clearly choose to ignore. I am not ignoring it - look at the photo, read the thread - what I am saying is that there is no need to bolt the third belay station on this particular climb.
mikepatt 12-Aug-2009 9:20:19 AM	On 12/08/2009 robertsonja wrote: >I removed my anchors, could you please remove yours? Please, please, please don't remove your trad anchors. It's a huge contribution to the climbing community in general, however, if people do feel strongly about the issue I'm willing to remove trad anchors. Seriously though, I don't have much of an issue with the fixed anchors.
cruze 12-Aug-2009 9:26:05 AM	I repeated Dribble a couple of months ago. My partner led the third pitch. It was a fun climb, made even more fun by the fact that she didn't have to faff around setting up an anchor. It quite clearly isnt a rap station, or to facilitate retreat, so perhaps the choice of bolts could have been different, but I don't bolt so don't really care. I don't necessarily agree with putting in bolts in belays where the gear is a little dubious, but that part of Tiger wall is so isolated, and the rock often so crappy that I can understand the rationale in this circumstance. I would hate to see the recent increase in bolted belays at Araps be the thin end of the wedge and spill over to retrobolt belays like P1/P2 of Brolga just because a case could be made (eg multiple pieces of the same size in a flaring horizontal with thin, thinly protected moves off the belay).
robertsonja 12-Aug-2009 9:28:40 AM	On 12/08/2009 widewetandslippery wrote: >I'm willing to stand corrected but Simon has cleaned a choss pile you yourself >probally would not of climbed if not for the cleaning. He has put 2 bolts >in. You are an anti bolt fundamentalist who like the climate change lot >are not going to be reasoned with as you consider yourself right beyond >all arguement. And then you start talking about consultation? Our rhetoric is irrelevant, but the fact is that the planet will be warmer for the next generation and the rock at Arapiles will be further altered. Both are from human impact. Our aims should be to reduce this impact. You stand next the truth but can't see it..... I talk about consultation...and that is what talking is all about.
..::- Chris -::.. 12-Aug-2009 10:18:15 AM	This thread is ridiculous.... If you don't like them don't clip them... I'm more than happy to take the word of an Arapiles guide book author and someone who's climbed the place from tip to toe for many many years, if he says they were needed they were needed.... You only need to read the grief Simey gave Dave Jones about Ergonomics to know Simey is not a person in favour of bolting arapiles.... ; ) On 12/08/2009 robertsonja wrote: >Our rhetoric is irrelevant, but the fact is that the planet will be warmer >for the next generation and the rock at Arapiles will be further altered. >Both are from human impact. Our aims should be to reduce this impact. You >stand next the truth but can't see it..... I agree with your aims except you forgot to add safety in there... A few more deaths at Arapiles and then i guess we won't have climbing or we'll need permits or worse we loose the right... I'm not in favour of Grid bolting and I'm positive Simey isn't either.....however i am in favour of our sport being as safe as possible so people have a choice as to whether climb a route as a death route or enjoy the route in a safer style...
nmonteith 12-Aug-2009 10:25:48 AM	On 12/08/2009 robertsonja wrote: >A person running commercial trips and who is bolting a trad cliff is naturally >going to be slightly biased in favour of commercial considerations, eg >easy access/retreat = better value for money/safety for the client. Easy access/retreat is a positive for most non-commercial climbers as well!
adrian 12-Aug-2009 10:38:28 AM	On 12/08/2009 robertsonja wrote: >Our rhetoric is irrelevant, but the fact is that the planet will be warmer >for the next generation and the rock at Arapiles will be further altered. >Both are from human impact. Our aims should be to reduce this impact. You >stand next the truth but can't see it..... > >I talk about consultation...and that is what talking is all about. > You don't want consultation - you want to decree that bolts won't be placed. This is not saying that I agree or disagree with the placement of these bolts, but what's the point of starting threads where you have a pre-determined agenda to attack very specific instances of bolting? Unless you're willing to start having a civil discussion, why bother?
Eduardo Slabofvic 12-Aug-2009 10:54:18 AM	On 12/08/2009 dalai wrote: >Araps has and always been a mixed gear cliff. It isn't a bolt free area... > >A simple fact you clearly choose to ignore. It's also been chipped as well, so I guess it's O.K. to keep doing that as well.

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