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Help keep access to The Balkans open

kieranl

17-Jul-2009
5:07:37 PM

After a week ill with swine flu I felt sick again reading this topic. What is it that brings out people's inner racist at even a sniff of Aboriginal interest in land?

I'm tempted to go into a great rant but will confine myself to the following :

Arapiles itself is subject to an Indigenous Land Use Agreement (ILUA). That took effect in 2005 and the world has not yet ended. A link to the agreement is below.

http://www.atns.net.au/agreement.asp?EntityID=3126

Further, anyone who thinks that Mabo and Wik have secured land rights for all time doesn't read the opinion pages of the major papers. A significant segment of the conservative population regards the Mabo and Wik decisions as illegitimate and expect them to be reversed over time. The culture wars are not over.


contactgav

17-Jul-2009
7:29:49 PM

I seriously doubt that all of this island was inhabitated by aboriginals.
So we didn't steal all the land. But yes we took the land by conquering and driving away the natives.
Bear in mind this was how things were done for the last millenium.
As 'wrong' as it maybe percieved now days I think people fail to recognise this fact.
Don,t forget what the Romans did throught out europe, which was no different to what happened in Australia.
Except those peoples back then succesfully adjusted and accepted the change, where as the abos haven't been able to.
I don,t believe giving land back will ever resolve this issue. The mixing of the two cultures has created a problem where unfortunately the abos have lost touch with their identity and that is why we see. Problems with drink and crime etc..
The answer lies with finding a way where the society can find away to help them live in a western society with out the need of alcohol and crime.
Because regardless of culture, violence and crime is totally unacceptable and there is no excuse for it
.


ajfclark

17-Jul-2009
7:48:01 PM

Any chance you could stop using that abbreviation?


nmonteith

17-Jul-2009
7:58:58 PM

On 17/07/2009 oldfella wrote:
>Don,t forget what the Romans did throught out europe, which was no different
>to what happened in Australia.

Didn't the Roman Empire collapse and they got their land back again? I don't think the Romans had a government policy to 'breed out' and otherwise remove the invaded countries people either.

>Except those peoples back then succesfully adjusted and accepted the
>change,

What evidence do you have they they adjusted and accepted the change? I think you'll find during the Roman era there was an 'invader class' of wealthy, powerful (armed) Roman people - and the actual citizens of the invaded country were treated as servants or slaves for the most part. It's a bit like saying the Poles, French etc successfully adjusted to the Nazis. When you have a sword/gun pointed at your head you smile and agree with them!

> where as the abos haven't been able to.
>I don,t believe giving land back will ever resolve this issue. The mixing
>of the two cultures has created a problem where unfortunately the abos
>have lost touch with their identity and that is why we see. Problems with
>drink and crime etc..

I agree to some extent.

>The answer lies with finding a way where the society can find away to
>help them live in a western society with out the need of alcohol and crime.
>Because regardless of culture, violence and crime is totally unacceptable
>and there is no excuse for it

Although I think the alcoholism and crime is a by product of the main problem of being born under-privileged. The very same issues effect poor bored whities. Many people take for granted the fact they were born with some degree of wealth which has given them privileges in life - education, healthcare, worldy experience interstate/overseas and good nutrition are things most of us think is normal. Imagine having none of that when you were growing up and you might understand why many aboriginals struggle to be 'successful' western citizens.


contactgav

17-Jul-2009
8:09:48 PM

On 17/07/2009 nmonteith wrote:
>>
>Didn't the Roman Empire collapse and they got their land back again? I
>don't think the Romans had a government policy to 'breed out' and otherwise
>remove the invaded countries people either.
>
>>Except those peoples back then succesfully adjusted and accepted the
>>change,
>
>>
the point about adjusting is that the romans brought many benefits to these communities, pliumbing for a basic example, which they took on board, the government infrastructure, roads etc...

western civilisation brought many benefits to australia, however due to the diversity of the aboriginal culture, it didn't see / realise these benefits and could see how they could benefit from them.

an it is this inability to adjust and change with their changing world, these problems have occured.

i hope you can understand what i'm trying to say.

kieranl

17-Jul-2009
8:16:41 PM

On 17/07/2009 oldfella wrote:
>I seriously doubt that all of this island was inhabitated by aboriginals.
So we get down to the basis of it - deny their possession. And if prior possession is in doubt in one place well, perhaps it's in doubt elsewhere.
This is contemptible and demonstrably wrong.
I suggest buying the HEMA outback maps and locating the aboriginal sites marked. Then go to the 4WD web-sites and find more detail on sites in the remotest of remote areas.
This "serious doubt" is intellectual laziness.
The only places Aboriginal people did not inhabit permanently were places were they could find no water. The breadth of country that they lived in is simpy astonishing.
I have had enough of this crap.
Unless you know what you are talking about, shut up.


contactgav

17-Jul-2009
8:32:55 PM

no kieren i don't refute their ownership, but i don't think that they own all the land as what has previously been stated.
i know they are are nomadic people and certain areas of their travels hold a certain significance in their culture and sense of belonging.

the point i'm making is that the aboriginal cuture is too different to the western culture and they have struggled to adjust with their change of landscape and surrounding world.

furthermore the point of public forums is to raise debate, discussions so people can learn.
we live in a society of free speech and the right to voice opinions and ask questions,.

telling people to shut makes you sound like a wanker. if you know so much about this topic, why don't you show a lot of patience with us neanderthol rascists and see it as a opportunity to educate rather than dictate.

if you don't like that, go live in China or Russia.


contactgav

17-Jul-2009
8:38:18 PM

sorry clarky,
i typed that entry on a mobile phone and was just to lazy to write the whole word repeatedly.
sorry, i use ab from now on

kieranl

17-Jul-2009
9:36:51 PM

On 17/07/2009 oldfella wrote:
>furthermore the point of public forums is to raise debate, discussions
>so people can learn.
>we live in a society of free speech and the right to voice opinions and
>ask questions,.
>
>telling people to shut makes you sound like a wanker. if you know so much
>about this topic, why don't you show a lot of patience with us neanderthol
>rascists and see it as a opportunity to educate rather than dictate.
>
>if you don't like that, go live in China or Russia.
This is a climbing forum. The only reason to discuss aboriginal ownership is in the context of access to cliffs - the aim of this topic in fact. It would have been useful if people had actually educated themselves about the issue in question rather than waffling racist nonsense about never having seen an aboriginal at the site.
This is not actually a forum for people to sprout their pet theories on aboriginal society and possession.
I find it contemptible when people just toss off one liners about aborigines never actually owning the whole country with no basis at all.
Despite my contempt, I provided an easily accessible starting reference point to begin to counter that statement (certainly no argument or supporting evidence was provided for it). I doubt that Oldfella will follow this up - and won't be convinced even so.
I will not have patience with lazy racism. It is simply vile and there are no compromises.


shay

18-Jul-2009
2:19:56 PM

Ok, people let's bring this back to climbing and access.

The Balkans access is NOT BEING THREATENED by aboriginal heritage sites. They are still doing research and studies of the area at Frontline and others along the creek line. We are very lucky that they are not preventing us from bouldering there.

As a community, we need to respect their findings and recommendations, and IF they ban climbing in one or two small areas at Frontline because of these sites, isn't that a better outcome than being banned from the Balkans completely? I think so.

Duncan

18-Jul-2009
3:33:24 PM

On 18/07/2009 shay wrote:
>As a community, we need to respect their findings and recommendations,
>and IF they ban climbing in one or two small areas at Frontline because
>of these sites, isn't that a better outcome than being banned from the
>Balkans completely? I think so.

Well said.

I went out to some blocs that were found near where I live this morning. They were wet, so I went and checked out an area that I found a few years back, and it was better than I remembered. There is so much new rock to be found out there. Hats off to those who go out and find new areas, and hats off to those who use their own time to maintain access to crags for the rest of us.

There are 51 messages in this topic.