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General Climbing Discussion

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Superstu

16-Jul-2009
10:58:08 AM

> I'm not saying its the case here, but there seem to be an awful lot of 'knee-jerk' decisions > with the intention of preserving any area an indigenous australian once farted in. And alot
> is also taken on trust with very little proof. My line of work makes me a bit cynical when I
> hear these claims, esp if there is money involved. The Aboriginal Heritage Act has made it > easy to make a financial gains in certain situations. For exmaple, a utilities company
> needs access to a piece of land. The local tribe then claim some historical or spiritual tie
> to the land and the company then ends up paying to access the area. In any other
> instance a party claiming ownership would have to show proof of this but it seems that 100 > odd years of guilt means a claim of 'this was once a gathering area' are accepted without
> question.

i suspect stue that your cynicism & distrust stems from inherent dislike and disinterest of aboriginal people & culture, which is a shame and your loss. Aboriginal history is in some ways a part of your history too. I reckon whether we are black or white we all live in australia and share a common history, not a black history and a white history. You don't have to be an aboriginal to appreciate aboriginal culture and the significance of a gathering area "where indigenous australians once farted in".

Having moved up from Melbourne, where there is little more left than the odd canoe tree or suburb name, Sydney (thanks to its topography) is blessed with many many sites, engravings, middens, and so on. Last weekend I was walking around Bobbin Head and in the marina there is an engraving of a giant fish on the rocks behind the carpark, almost swallowed up by the development there. Immediately you can sense that people once fished here a long time ago. Surely that heritage is worth preserving for everyone.


nmonteith

16-Jul-2009
11:12:54 AM

The aboriginal population is about 2% of the total Australian population. The Maori population is 15% of the New Zealand population. There is actually more Maoris than Aboriginals in total AND the Maoris are generally considered 'one culture', whilst the native australian aboriginals are much more fragmented (mostly because Australia is HUGE!). Aboriginals have thousands of languages and different customs. Maoris have one singular language and culture. People make the mistake of treating all aboriginals like they come from the one country - if you think of Australia as Europe, then you might understand it better - the northern aboriginals are the Scandivaians and the southern aboriginals are the Turks. Obviously they don't share much in common! I've met and interacted with many examples of positive Aboriginal culture. They might not have mulit-million dollar interactive museums, but they do exist, especially up north in the NT.


Superstu

16-Jul-2009
11:13:30 AM

On 16/07/2009 oldfella wrote:
>where is the effort from the aboriginals in educating the tourists about
>their culture.
>can any one tell me where in Sydney people and go and learn about the
>aborigines?
>i'm not refferring to libraries, but some thing like the Sydney Aquarium
>or Powerhouse Museum.

you oughta get out more oldfella, i cant think of a suburb or town in australia that doesn't have an aboriginal cultural centre staffed by indigenous ppls..

About 5 seconds searching on the web...
* Muru Mittigar Cultural Centre. Muru Mittigar provides you with the opportunity to participate and interact with members of the local Aboriginal community. There are live performances, tours and much more, including lessons in boomerang throwing. Located in Penrith, near the International Regatta Centre. See Muru Mittigar Cultural Centre.
* Thullii Dreaming - Traditional dance, authentic bush tucker, arts and culture. Experience Aboriginal Australia with a Sydney Harbour Cruise. Also corporate and educational training, hand crafted giftware and cultural tours and camps to the Hunter Valley. See Thullii Dreaming.
* For an online Aboriginal cultural experience see the Us Mob from Hidden Valley, Alice Springs, with broadband flash, video and games. See The Us Mob.
* Blue Mountains Walkabout Tour - Explore the ancient Blue Mountains through Aboriginal eyes - the country, culture and ancient wisdom. The tour also encompasses art, ceremonial sites, artefacts and dreamtime stories. Blue Mountains Walkabout.
* All the major museums have major permanent aboriginal culture displays

A very good read is "Aboriginal Sydney: A guide to important places of the past and present" by Melinda Hinkson


contactgav

16-Jul-2009
11:33:30 AM

Superstu,
i see your point, but the places you have noted are not well known to the general public are they?
the point i'm 'trying' to make is that if there was greater proactive effort by the aboriginals in preserving the land and educating society, the response and attitude would be different.

a similar comparision could be made to the green movement. once the greenies took a serious and professional approach to their cause and redressed public perception of them they have moved forward signifcantly.

If a similar approach was made by the aboringinal community i truly believe the cynisim would be less.

StuE

16-Jul-2009
11:40:05 AM

On 16/07/2009 superstu wrote:
>
>i suspect stue that your cynicism & distrust stems from inherent dislike
>and disinterest of aboriginal people & culture, which is a shame and your
>loss. Abo history is in some ways a part of your history too.

Not really. I have no hidden agenda nor preconceptions of aboriginal people/culture, being a 'pommie wanker' who arrived on these shores only 5 years ago. My cynicism simply stems from my experiences from far too many years in the insurance industry!
I'm sure you'll agree that I wasn't suggesting that artwork etc should not be protected. I was only saying that in my view an awful lot is taken on trust which can lead to access being restricted to others at the mere suggestion of some aboriginal significance.


nmonteith

16-Jul-2009
11:50:21 AM

On 16/07/2009 oldfella wrote:
>Superstu,
>i see your point, but the places you have noted are not well known to
>the general public are they?

I guess you need to ask yourself the question - do you proactively seek out this 'cultural experience' or expect it to dished out to you in your usual mainstream western career/lifestyle path? i think you expect big things from a population base who is tiny. They are the farmers market in a world of Woolworths.

> a similar comparision could be made to the green movement. once the greenies
>took a serious and professional approach to their cause and redressed public
>perception of them they have moved forward signifcantly.

Green = mainstream now. A large percentage of the population is now green aware to some degree. Big business has to make concessions to the green vote. Unfortunately the aboriginal population as a % is tiny - so will never have the aboriginal people power to sway anything in a government (voting) sense or in a 'big business' serious sense. It's actually up the non-aboriginal population to stand up for them to make the numbers.


contactgav

16-Jul-2009
12:38:37 PM

if such a tiny community can achieve something like MABO, surely it can become mainstream.
the green movement was also a very tiny minority movement to begin with, was it not.
they are hardly precieved as the dole bludging hippies destroying machines and being tied up to trees as they once were to tell a message.

and as your rightly point out, a majority of non aboriginals make up the numbers. so it isn't neccessary an issue with the population %, but moreso public support.
which re interates my idea that if they address the public perception, then things would be greater for everyone.


nmonteith

16-Jul-2009
1:04:04 PM

On 16/07/2009 oldfella wrote:
>they are hardly precieved as the dole bludging hippies destroying machines and being tied up >to trees as they once were to tell a message.

Now they just sit in parliament approve Uranium mines and Tassie logging! :-)

>which re interates my idea that if they address the public perception,
>then things would be greater for everyone.

Who is 'they'? As i stated above they aren't one united culture. I think it needs to work both ways - they can try and better their public perception but we as a nation also need to take more interest in their culture (proactively visiting and interacting with them). We don't seem to have an Aboriginal Day - we celebrate Queens Birthdays, 100 year old wars, political movements...


ajfclark

16-Jul-2009
1:19:24 PM

On 16/07/2009 nmonteith wrote:
>We don't seem to have an Aboriginal Day - we celebrate Queens Birthdays, 100 year old wars, political moments...

Horse races...

devlin66

16-Jul-2009
2:06:39 PM

I'll wade into the debate.......

I have no problem with the aboriginal community being given money, land etc. as they are the original 'owners' of the land and as a ethnic group have been abused over the years. I would even applaud a national day of celebration and more hands on education because as an Australian that heritage, even though I am not a direct descendant is important to me. What I do get annoyed at is the chip on their shoulder that they carry around with them. I know it's easy for me to say that, being a white anglo male, but come on. How much money and land do they really need?

........ wading back out now.


ambyeok

16-Jul-2009
3:40:09 PM

Im a Kiwi, we have Waitangi day, a fine day on which we celebrate the one and only time that the british got their arses kicked by the locals.


hangdog

16-Jul-2009
6:08:56 PM

It seems like the original inhabitants enjoyed hanging around in rock overhangs and enjoying the bush the same as the whities do. And they got to do in the buff. Seems ok to me.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

17-Jul-2009
7:49:31 AM

... or maybe a possum skin coat if the weather is like this mornings temperatures!

widewetandslippery

17-Jul-2009
2:00:53 PM

This is kind of hypocritical coming from me but this is an important topic that should be kept on track.

Council is involved with the trust. Council has multifarious responsibilities but at end of day rate payers vote the polititions in.

Trust has its own agenda.

Climbers are outside this communion unless they get involved.

Who are climbers annoying? (and I think they probally are).

How do individuals do their best not to rock the boat if they are an area user but not willing to get involved with "the bigger picture".

I believe the local council in that area is influential in higher levels of government.


Superstu

17-Jul-2009
2:31:28 PM

On 16/07/2009 StuE wrote:
>I'm sure you'll agree that I wasn't suggesting that artwork etc should
>not be protected. I was only saying that in my view an awful lot is taken
>on trust which can lead to access being restricted to others at the mere
>suggestion of some aboriginal significance.

Have a read of this. Probably one of the most interesting recent discoveries...
http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s805459.htm

The quote at the end is food for thought.


porkpie

17-Jul-2009
3:16:04 PM

Might be significant to Western Victoria (better ban climbing at Araps just to be sure), but unless they find evidence of Aboriginals growing GM canola (or other 'great' agricultural development) at the Balkans hundreds of years ago - I am going to continue bouldering there.

Like religion I refuse to believe the wild claims of a few in the absence of any real evidence - especially when those few have a lot to gain. Political Correctness is a good thing but enforcing it in the absence of evidence is crazy. Will we end up banning all recreational activities everytime some makes an unsubstanciated claim?

If evidence is not required to support outrageous claims then I now declare myself God and want all chockstoners to donate 10% of there income to me (can't wait to form a cult and bed all my new wives!)


nmonteith

17-Jul-2009
3:20:57 PM

I'm not sure why the rant abut religion. Aboriginal land claims aren't about 'spiritual matters' they are about the cold hard fact we stole all their land 200 years ago - and they deserve some of it back, even if it is the scraps that no-one apart from a few boulderers care about. Like most National Parks in Oz, the reason it didn't get turned into free-hold pasture and suburbia was because it was too rocky or too inaccessible.

StuE

17-Jul-2009
3:39:51 PM

But in this case it isn't about handing back a few scraps of land, its about potential access restrictions to a few popular climbs because of a dubious assertion by the 'heritage consultants' Unless a 'significant cultural site' extends to include a dry spot used for many years by local kids for mulling up.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

17-Jul-2009
3:42:56 PM

On 17/07/2009 nmonteith wrote:
>I'm not sure why the rant abut religion. Aboriginal land claims aren't
>about 'spiritual matters' they are about the cold hard fact we stole all
>their land 200 years ago (snip)

That may be true, but I think you are drawing a long bow there, depending on what you mean by 'spiritual matters'.
I thought you generally argued the opposite side of the coin recently?

I would suggest 'spirituality' is inextricably entwined in almost all fair dinkum aboriginal land claims.


nmonteith

17-Jul-2009
3:53:55 PM

I was just arguing the case that its not all about vague religious concepts - but about physical land as well that's all.

There are 51 messages in this topic.