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THE AUSTRALIAN RETRO/RE-BOLTING OPEN FORUM

hex- TROLL

4-Feb-2004
3:51:41 PM

When a rock climb is retro-bolted, does the 'ownership' and 'rights of veto' (ala the debate in connection with Monkey Puzzle), then 'pass onto' the person who added the new bolts ?> Mikl is concerned about, (the once), 'well respected...head route' of Bloodline @ Camels Hump ; > Simon Parsons ( our thoughts are with you ,dude),(see Chockstone interview) , wants Seize The Day @ Duck Reach ,Tas, to be 'restored to its original condition'.
Maybe it's a bit like sealing an out-back gravel road : some people enjoy the closer involvement with, and challenge of 'nature' (gravel) ; while others simply love to 'cut-sick' on anything that is an extension to their industralised, world experience : (Kyle in Rock : 'people don't want adventure any more' ).
Who is committing the 'heinous crime' ? The ' improver' or the 'restorer' ? ; Who then 'owns' the 'original' , ' improved', or 'renovated / restored' rock climb ?

Warm 'n' fuzzy / flack 'n' spray contributions are all welcome on this 'parliamentary' thread.

Luv ya'al , HEX

B&T

4-Feb-2004
4:35:28 PM

In my opinion retro-bolting is on par with chipping. That is lowering a climb to your ability as apposed to repeating it in its original first accent state. I have no problems with the replacement of dodgy bolts, this is not retro-bolting.
Just because the tendency at the moment is for safe consumer routes for the masses does not mean climbing will not return to individuals who wish to test there mental and not only physical abilities.
My major concern is not so much the actions of 1 or 2 individuals with the approval of a select few, but what this will create in the future as acceptable behaviour.
This is not a new argument, bolt wars have come and gone in other parts of the world and usually it comes down to economics. It's cheaper to chop them than it is to put them in, which usually ends with the rock being the real loser.

hex- TROLL

4-Feb-2004
4:40:25 PM

Dude-Kent , you have contributed an important element to my 'drift' : Seize The Day(26/27), was originally an M5 aid-route (?),so what 'say' does the original,original first ascent crew, have in relation to events 30? years later? ; re: Monkpuz : ' what happens when HB dies' ? To what extent should the first ascent STYLE be respected?It's totally warm 'n' cool that Simey and daboyz'n'girl were able to leave the original aid route on The Totem Pole in it's mostly 'museumesque' , John Ewbank condition.
As one of the great 'quiet-achievers' of Australian climbing , Parson's views are both refreshing and respectable.

James

4-Feb-2004
4:44:25 PM

the debate re Monkey Puzzle is different to Bloodline. Monkey Puzzle was talking of replacing 1 type of fixed gear with another, there was never any suggestion to add additional fixed pieces. The Monkey Puzzle debate does not amount to retro-bolting in my opinion. But the tat on MK will not be replaced with a bolt in the forceeable future.

Bloodline, I've never done it, but in my books retro-bolting (adding additional pieces) without consultation/discussion is not cool. At the same time, chopping bolts without consultation/discussion & is not cool either.

hex- TROLL

4-Feb-2004
5:10:53 PM

Hopefully , a broad-range of people (including those of 'the spider-hole' of the 'inner-sanctum'---don't want them getting 'pastey-white-bot-bot' from lack of sun shine ! ), will deposit the occasional 'pearler' onto this 'everyone's-views(including our mate DOT-GOV )-are-valued' , Austalia-wide thread.

Keep crankin' dudes, Luv Hex


nmonteith

4-Feb-2004
5:41:06 PM

My views and work will not be mentioned in this topic. There is already pages of this stuff in the re-bolting forum. Hex, if you want to start your own forum then go ahead...

Dalai

4-Feb-2004
6:18:52 PM

Dear Vex

The issue has had come to this unfortunate arrangement because people like yourself and some within government bodies have misunderstood the primary goal of the rebolt Victoria concept. It is to only reequip dangerous existing fixed protection, thus minimizing the possibility of accidents and then climbing as a whole being banned. Government bodies don¹t discern themselves with terms like trad or sport. Climbing is lumped into the one bucket. So if gear fails (fixed or natural) the easy answer by bureaucracy in this country is to ban rather than understand.

I thought that Australian's were past the petty sport/trad debate last century. Obviously I was wrong.

Regards Martin

hex- TROLL

4-Feb-2004
6:39:26 PM

Neil---it's already happening bro. This thread is for 'the bigger picture' views of what is going on in this country as more and more crags 'lose their charm' due to what Kyle refers to as 'more bolts, more chalk, more crap in the bushes'
Your articles are 'bench-mark' ; your 'my views, my work' attitude doesn't give much credit to your buddies ; the replacement of dangerous rust is commendable, tho, a closer association with the VCC would give you more political credibility, as the insidious tentacles of DOT-GOV roam closer and closer to the very places that we go to,to get away from etc,etc,etc.
Hopefully people, especially people who aren't as 'hard-wired' into 'the scene' as the 'low-profilers', will feel able to make a casual contribution ,without feeling 'big bother-bothered' by your ' your either with us or against us' vibe.
To anyone who has or wants to contribute , this is '[everyone's] own forum'---not mine.
The route 'ownership' thing still isn't clear : do land owners and DOT-GOV have any say beyond the access issue ?
Luv HEX


mousey

4-Feb-2004
8:13:19 PM

HEX mate, I just have a few things to say about your last post....

>Your articles are 'bench-mark' ; your 'my views, my work' attitude doesn't
>give much credit to your buddies

just wondering, where is it that you get the idea of neil leaving his companions out of the limelight?....come to think of- isnt the whole bloody point of this restricted access to the rebolting forum to not BE in the limelight as much?

>a closer association with the VCC would give you more
>political credibility, as the insidious tentacles of DOT-GOV roam closer
>and closer to the very places that we go to,to get away from etc,etc,etc.

read up on what happened to Blue Mountains Cliffcare so that I don't need to comment on this one

>Hopefully people, especially people who aren't as 'hard-wired' into 'the
>scene' as the 'low-profilers', will feel able to make a casual contribution
>,without feeling 'big bother-bothered' by your ' your either with us or
>against us' vibe.

if people can see that their opinions are not coinciding with those already on the thread then they are fully aware of the posibilty of criticism before posting and should hold themselves responsible if such criticism makes them fell a little blue. thats basic social principles mate- if you say something in a way that nobody likes, you'll usually get some negative feedback about it. with this in mind, nobody has any reason to feel 'big brothered' any more than they would sitting in a lecture hall (or whatever else you do with your time)

>To anyone who has or wants to contribute , this is '[everyone's] own forum'---not
>mine.

As far as I can see, the people who want a say have been given the opportunity to have one- whether your opinions are popularluy supported or completely contradictory, if you go about debating it in a civil manner then you are quite welcome (as neil has made clear) to email him and gain access to the rebolting forum- it is people like this, in fact, who act as catalysts for healthy discussion and aid in refining the values of openminded bolters and antibolters alike.

>The route 'ownership' thing still isn't clear : do land owners and DOT-GOV
>have any say beyond the access issue ?

if the line is on private property, then while the first ascentsionist is credited with the climb, access ultimately comes down to the owner. the same with NPWS in the national parks- we climb, they decide whether it's legal or not
thats the reason (as far as i can see) that neil did the whole forum access thing in the first place- if the issue of bolting is constantly being pushed in the faces of NPWS then they are going to be far more likely to restrict access. by resricting access to the forum, the antibolters who lurk the forums just to build up propaganda from the good work that neil & co. are doing, we have a degree of control over what is being served up to the park rangers

>Luv HEX

Should I be scared by this concluding motif?

I'm sure your a great guy (or girl) hex, and i respect that you have a right to an opinion (even more that you are taking the time to express it), however i do think you should consider all the factors involved and come to a few more educated conclusions about neils (and everyone elses) actions recently before you make hardline comments rejecting them.

hex- TROLL

4-Feb-2004
8:15:58 PM

Dalai---thanks for contributing the grisly flack'n'spray, dude---your views are valued by all
who respect an open forum.Some would like to think that aboriginal issues were all 'tidied up' in the 20th c., but now these AUSTRALIANS have recently found a new issue (and rightly so ) in what 'climbers' are doing to their places of cultural significance. The 'petty sport/trad debate' is not what this thread is about.However, it is important to remember that many AUSTRALIANS (including many aboriginals and the HUNDREDS of gym-production-line-newbies) , have no idea about trad/sport/sport/trad , other than they want no bolts/fixed gear or they want ONLY bolts/fixed gear.
'The primary goal' of Re-bolt Vic is CLEARLY understood by the likes of 'Dinkum'---his 'beef' ' is about how far YOUR tentacles are going geographically and whether it's reasonable or LEGAL to have a situation where 'this climb has been here for years therefore its ok to re-bolt it regardless of the present land tenure/administration'.

Dig ya 'wire-brushed' attitude, bro.

Luv HEX


phil_nev

4-Feb-2004
8:43:28 PM

Hex,
You have not supplied your real name or even an email adress. Just letting you know now, NO-ONE will take anything you say seriously as you have no credibility. You could post anything and be non-accountable as no one knows who you are.

If you really wish to contribute your thoughts, they would be far more welcome if you make yourself known.

Phil

hex- TROLL

4-Feb-2004
9:10:57 PM

Mickey---you are one smooooth dude---your style slides like glue from a nozzle---good stuff ma'maaan.
Hopefully 'Re-pair the crags Vic' (take out the DOT-GOV 'detonator' word : i.e. 'bolt'),can gradually get some funky synergies happening with the VCC ---access ant is a LEGEND.
Allow a clarification of 'bench-mark' : Neil's litt' contributions to Australian rock climbing are 'up-there' with the best--- we're talkin' bench-mark QUALITY.
'original condition' of Seize The Day ? : magnificent rock with a lot less bolts.
Luv (not Love) HEX.

Dalai

4-Feb-2004
9:32:34 PM

I second Phil's comments. No credibility can be given to someone who uses the anonymity of the untitled user and has clearly joined in the quest to intentionally troll for reactions. Go to rockclimbing.com and start a flame war there. You will fit right in!

In regards to your response to my previous comments. If the original aboriginal land holders have concerns, I think you will find they are not whether fixed protection is placed, but that we are there full stop.

This is my final reply to your diatribe Vex. Not worth the trouble.

Martin -not your Luv (sic) bro or dude

hex- TROLL

4-Feb-2004
10:01:52 PM

Phil---I respect your 'drift' ,dude. This is a TOTALLY OPEN forum. It's about IDEAS and if the 200+ 'lurkers' and 'others' wanna have a 'I don't want to be taken toooooooooooo seriously' say, on issues that may or may not be degrading their climbing experience
and even access to their climbing experience then etc,etc,etc
Luv HEX


mousey

4-Feb-2004
10:16:52 PM

if you're going to use up bandwidth space can you at least say something where you actually make a point, say something remotely related to the post you are replying to, or offer a new, semiintelligent idea- rather than continually dribbling bullshit (am i allowed to say that on here?) about peace love wars and etc etc etc yo bro sweet rolling stoner luv ya Hex? honestly the shit you post has no actual intelligent meaning whatsoever

hex- TROLL

4-Feb-2004
10:30:22 PM

Mickey---just hang on a bit ,while we all fly thru a bit more flak!

hex- TROLL

4-Feb-2004
10:35:10 PM

Dalai---thanks for your contributions.The aboriginal issue might become bigger than any of us imagine.
Luv HEX


IdratherbeclimbingM9

4-Feb-2004
10:54:05 PM

On 4/02/2004 hex wrote:
>Seize The Day(26/27), was originally an M5 aid-route (?),so what 'say' does the
>original,original first ascent crew, have in relation to events 30? years later?
>; re: Monkpuz : ' what happens when HB dies' ? To what extent should
>the first ascent STYLE be respected?.

Interesting point you have (anonymously) made.

Seems to me that things evolve with time and we chronicle it. 1st ascent M-whatever; then FNA (1st nut ascent); FFA (1st free ascent); and hopefully NEVER 1st retrobolt ascent!

As I understand the object of the game, it is to try and repeat the ascent in at least as good a style (or better) than the 1st ascent, and also to have fun and not hurt yourself.

I fully expect others to eventually 'free' any aid routes I may put up, (though maybe not in my lifetime)?
I have no say whatsoever in subsequent ascents that are done in better style than I may have done it, but if I am still alive in 30 years time I would call to account someone demeaning (retrobolting/chipping etc) the route where it has ongoing effects for (future) others who may wish to also attempt the climb in as close to its original state as possible.
When I die who cares? ... other than those with a sense of history (or like me a romantic penchant for it*). I do not expect that others will respect the style too much after I am gone.

[* I had a fabulous time last weekend repeating a John Ewbank classic in closely the same style as its 1st ascent, complete with a couple of points of aid, even though it subsequently goes free. I am bent this way to the point that I have even been known to sometimes deliberately leave my cams at home to try and repeat climbs closer to the original style on nuts only].

I acknowledge that there are grey areas though.
If for example I aid a face climb on hooks due to nil natural pro opportunities, and in the future someone wants to bolt it to protect it as a free climb, then if I was asked ... I would probably look upon the request favourably.
In this example I would very much appreciate the opportunity to have input into how this was done though, as I would consider a bold (protectionless) 1st ascent on aid, to be worth at least minimum bolts on a subsequent free ascent thus keeping as much of the character of the climb intact for others as possible. (I'd probably say protect for the groundfall but leave longish runouts to keep it bold).

At the start, and in the end, its just a piece of rock. It only becomes a climb when you add the human element. Take that away and the 'ethics' go with it. If others choose to continue an ethic then that is their game. I doubt I could 'bequeath' an ethic (due to not being enforcable), though I choose to inherit them!

I have been around long enough to view the whole sportclimb thing in the same light. Its just another example of collective evolution taking place. We will chronicle it, and who knows, ... the authorities etc are evolving also, ... so we may diverge further or even coalesce in the future!

kieranl

4-Feb-2004
11:09:15 PM

Hex is a waste of time and space. Most of you people have seen me get (very) passionate with people and issues but I can't be bothered with this one. It doesn't ring true.
Kieran


Clancy

5-Feb-2004
9:59:39 AM

I don't post regularly but ihave followed some of the debates (arguements?) on the rebolting forum and I feel that Neil has the right idea. Hex quite stirring and respect the forum...

thanks,
Clancy

There are 335 messages in this topic.