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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 2 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 50
Author
If its A5 where are the bodies?

IdratherbeclimbingM9
5-Feb-2008
5:23:08 PM
Thanks for the link gordoste.

This is news to me regarding his credibility and I am not sure why he (allegedly?), needed to tarnish his reputation by trying to enhance it?
My knowledge of his exploits mainly stem from a Greg Child(?*) interview with him and subsequent published article.
(*... need to go to my library and peruse for the original source to quote relevant bits if appropriate).

Macciza
5-Feb-2008
5:52:51 PM
I guess I should pipe in with something on this.
My M8/A5 route on Doggy is unrepeated though death is certainly possible on it due to groundfall as it
entails pretty much nothing but hooks and beaks for 20m straight of the deck on very poor rock to the
point that proper testing simply was not feasable - several sub-body weight failed pieces before
something might stick and aggressive bounce testing just ain't worth it - it's a time-bomb crap shoot at
best - some placements fell out when touched when cleaning it, Hard bad placements + risk = M8

Hard aid placements aren't tested for falls - the simply need to hold your body weight and a little bit.
If your gear is rated at 2-3 kN ie small RP's RURPs Beaks etc you have very little leeway in falls

AnthonyK's comment are pretty much on the money.

So E9's 'Death on a Stick' E10 and 11 are DOAS with harder climbing -say E9 is 'Death 29' E10 = D 30

There are many things that go into grade -difficulty, danger, protection etc and all for the onsight too . .
I think you really need to do some of the style of climbing before you can really pass judgement . . .
Garth onsighting 32 doesn't mean it's not really hard
Someone onsighting on A5 doesn't mean it's not dangerous

Hard aid is sometimes like defusing timebombs - really satisfying if you can get away with . . .

uwhp510
5-Feb-2008
11:04:38 PM
The same problems apply in hard aid climbing as with hard trad climbing in assessing the quality of the gear that is placed, except that in hard aid climbing it is definitely tested (with body weight at least). So the point is that if LOTS of people are doing the same aid route, using basically the same placements and gear, and they're not falling, then the gear is obviously not as bad as all that. Its different to a hard trad route (many of which must get climbed on top rope a lot prior to being led) in that you know exactly how hard the climbing is, and so you have a pretty good idea of your chances of not falling. In aid climbing the only thing you know about your chances of falling is what you think you know about the quality of the gear which might be (and probably is considering the whole point of this argument is why don't more people fall on A5 and die) better than you think.

ps I don't want to come across as some weird anti-aid climbing zealot. I just think its an interesting argument about perception of risk, which has a neat parallel in white-water paddling, where you also can't divorce difficulty from danger (ie grade 5 rapids and above will always have some fairly substantial objective risks involved).

pps Holy shit you are hard Macciza. I bet you have Chuck Norris style abs and everything.

ppps The above is a joke. Don't hunt me down and round-house kick me into oblivion over it.

Macciza
6-Feb-2008
1:23:07 AM
On 5/02/2008 uwhp510 wrote:
>The same problems apply in hard aid climbing as with hard trad climbing
>in assessing the quality of the gear that is placed, except that in hard
>aid climbing it is definitely tested (with body weight at least).

Thats right - which is far less force then you can generate by yanking on a wire or falling on it from above.
Or maybe it is simply a 0 RP rated at 2kN - very snappable on either trad or aid.
Maybe it's a 10m runout on slopey holds or difficult technical hooking with bad landing

>So the point is that if LOTS of people are doing the same aid route, using basically
>the same placements and gear, and they're not falling, then the gear is
>obviously not as bad as all that.

Actually lots of people bail before it reaches that stage or they have the skills to keep it all together

>Its different to a hard trad route (many
>of which must get climbed on top rope a lot prior to being led) in that
>you know exactly how hard the climbing is, and so you have a pretty good
>idea of your chances of not falling.

You also know your chance of falling and the consequences, and the experience of previous ascents
The gear may be 50/50 it either holds or it doesn't - you may have tested it but it still blows
You may be relying on technical belaying and the 'luck of the fall'

>In aid climbing the only thing you
>know about your chances of falling is what you think you know about the
>quality of the gear which might be (and probably is considering the whole
>point of this argument is why don't more people fall on A5 and die) better
>than you think.

I often find that half the 'good' gear is crap and half the 'crap' gear is good - it's all 50/50, so don't worry . .
Sometimes the most ridiculous things will hold after the most stonking piece has failed, it's amazing . . .
Sometimes it's hours runout on hooks way above 50/50 gear, sitting there baffled by how to move even 1m
A lot of the time people simply bail before it gets too hard for them, particularly in the middle grades.

>ps I don't want to come across as some weird anti-aid climbing zealot.

No - but maybe you don't understand the finer points of hard-aid or trad that well

> I just think its an interesting argument about perception of risk, which
>has a neat parallel in white-water paddling, where you also can't divorce
>difficulty from danger (ie grade 5 rapids and above will always have some
>fairly substantial objective risks involved).

Which is exactly the same as A5, R etc it will always have a large element of risk - that is embraced . .

> pps Holy shit you are hard Macciza. I bet you have Chuck Norris style
>abs and everything.

Umm . . . well, no actually . . .

>ppps The above is a joke. Don't hunt me down and round-house kick me
>into oblivion over it.

I would not even dream of it - in fact I'll take you aid-climbing if you'd like, . . . . an A5, but don't worry . . .

IdratherbeclimbingM9
6-Feb-2008
8:40:00 AM
uwhp510 wrote;
>Its different to a hard trad route (many
>of which must get climbed on top rope a lot prior to being led) in that
>you know exactly how hard the climbing is, and so you have a pretty good
>idea of your chances of not falling.

& Macciza replied;
>You also know your chance of falling and the consequences, and the experience of previous ascents
>The gear may be 50/50 it either holds or it doesn't - you may have tested it but it still blows
>You may be relying on technical belaying and the 'luck of the fall'

Hmm, … interesting angle there.
I often find it is the ‘not knowing’ aspect of whether I will fall that is the mental blockage component!
Glass half full or half empty thing happening I suppose ... ?


Hey Macciza, I have not climbed on Dogface but I do have a good background on Sydney seacliffs (similar sandfests in places).
Your route 'The Pecker Route'; ... is it nailed peckers, or 'clean aid' peckers ie hand placed?

Also do you know the history of who placed ('65) and who chopped ('67) the bolt ladder?

I am half interested in checking it, and also '21st Century Aid', out sometime ...

& another Q, ... does 21st C.A. finish up Colossus for it's final pitch?

Would be good if your site 'M8 - Aussie Aid Climbing' here had further info or topo of same.

Love the zoomify!

IdratherbeclimbingM9
6-Feb-2008
9:37:02 AM
Macciza wrote;
>Hard aid is sometimes like defusing timebombs - really satisfying if you can get away with . . .
&
>I'll take you aid-climbing if you'd like, . . . . an A5, but don't worry . . .

Brings to mind a quote of Mark Twight that Aron Ralston reiterated.
~ “It doesn’t have to be fun, to be fun.” ~

… the former died in an avalanche and the latter amputated his own arm!

~> yeah, … take Macciza up on the offer uwhp510 !

:-P

Macciza
6-Feb-2008
10:09:50 AM
On 6/02/2008 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:

>Hmm, … interesting angle there.
>I often find it is the ‘not knowing’ aspect of whether I will fall that
>is the mental blockage component!
>Glass half full or half empty thing happening I suppose ... ?

Sometimes I just have to try to trust my climbing ability and the fact that the situation I'm in is exactly
where I am supposed to be and accept the consequences . . .
I also try to watch out for subtle signs and try to differentiate between what is real and what isn't . . .

>Hey Macciza, I have not climbed on Dogface but I do have a good background
>on Sydney seacliffs (similar sandfests in places).
>Your route 'The Pecker Route'; ... is it nailed peckers, or 'clean aid'
>peckers ie hand placed?

Mostly hammered next to bolt but with a light touch to avoid blowing it out but in enough to hold and oh
now its a bit wobbly should I blow the sand out and just set it a bit deeper? good? sort of stuff . .

>Also do you know the history of who placed ('65) and who chopped ('67)
>the bolt ladder?

I'll send you some info if you want

>I am half interested in checking it, and '21st Century Aid', out sometime
>& another Q, ... does 21st C.A. finish up Colossus for it's final pitch?

Um I guess it's kind of still an open project -pitch 1 finished in no-mans land and needs to be finished
Pitch 2 is kinda in the same boat
>
>Would be good if your site 'M8 - Aussie Aid Climbing' here had further info or topo of same.

Yeah I should do a bit more there . . .
>Love the zoomify!
>

Macciza
6-Feb-2008
10:20:57 AM
On 6/02/2008 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:

>Brings to mind a quote of Mark Twight that Aron Ralston reiterated.
>~ “It doesn’t have to be fun, to be fun.” ~
>
>… the former died in an avalanche and the latter amputated his own arm!

That's actually a favourite of mine too and makes many a horrid moment fun - enjoying it . . .
I hope it's not setting any precedent - though I guess a number of my idols are dead . . .
With free climbing there are these short bursts of fear - on aid you can be freaked for hours . . .
Unfortunately I may be going soft - I could not manage to try a new aid route impulsively late the other
in extremely misty, rainy inky blackness despite the reasonable conditions, just couldn't do it . . .

>~> yeah, … take Macciza up on the offer uwhp510 !

Yeah we could go do a new route at Buffalo or on the Dog . . . . . .

IdratherbeclimbingM9
6-Feb-2008
10:45:05 AM
>I'll send you some info if you want

Yes, please. (PM maybe?)

>Unfortunately I may be going soft (etc)

Heh, heh, heh!

Know the feeling!

:)

evanbb
6-Feb-2008
10:55:44 AM
On 6/02/2008 Macciza wrote:
>>~> yeah, … take Macciza up on the offer uwhp510 !
>
>Yeah we could go do a new route at Buffalo or on the Dog . . . . . .

Is there much risk for the second on hard aid? I'd be keen, but I guess there's dodginess of belays.

Been thinking aid might be a less shoulder unfriendly pursuit for the first couple of months post-op.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
6-Feb-2008
10:58:55 AM
>Is there much risk for the second on hard aid?

Only of being bored senseless for hours, or being hammered by the leader if s/he survives the fall you fail to catch promptly! Heh, heh, heh.

Then again a leader falling back onto you at the belay or dropping missiles is sometimes a possibility.
The Intifada link gordoste posted speaks of missiles, amongst other things ...

>I'd be keen, but I guess there's dodginess of belays.

Not always (?, Usually not!), Clouded Queen and more recently Copperhead Road being examples.

It (aid) is often plain hard work. Even following a lead on jugs and cleaning can be strenuous / awkward, especially if the line is wandery.

wallwombat
6-Feb-2008
12:24:11 PM
On 6/02/2008 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:

>Brings to mind a quote of Mark Twight that Aron Ralston reiterated.
>~ “It doesn’t have to be fun, to be fun.” ~

Sorry Rod, but Barry "Bubba" Blanchard said that, not Dr Doom.

>… the former died in an avalanche and the latter amputated his own arm!

And unless it has happened very, very recently Dr Doom (Twight) is still alive and kicking and probably boring the hell out of people with his dark, brooding hyper-self-conscious musings on extreme alpinism and life in general.

The pain! The pain!

wallwombat
6-Feb-2008
12:28:59 PM
I was under the impression that one of the main stipulations for an aid climb to be graded 'modern A5' was that there were no bolts, not even at belays. With bolts, no matter how hard the actual climbing, a route could only be A4+.

Post Edit: I was wrong about the bolts on belays for A5 routes. See thread below.

wallwombat
6-Feb-2008
12:34:22 PM
The following grades definitions are from John Long and John Middendorf in their excellent book ’Big Wall Climbing’.

A0: Hanging from gear, stepping on pitons, pulling up on nuts, etc. Everything that doesn’t require aiders and can’t be honestly called ’free climbing’. Also known as "French free".

A1: Easy aid. Placements are easy and bomber. Each piece should hold a fall.

A2: Moderate aid. Solid but often awkward and strenuous placements. Maybe a difficult placement or two above good pro. Falls pose no danger.

A2+: Moderate aid, but with more tenuous placements above good pro. There is a potential for serious falls, but these will generally be otherwise uneventful.

A3: Hard aid. Requires many tenuous placements in a row and pieces need to be tested before weighting them. There should be solid placements within the pitch, but they are rather few and far between. During a fall, up to eight pieces of pro may rip out, but there generally is little serious danger. Takes several hours to complete a pitch.

A3+: A3, but with a dangerous fall potential.

A4: Serious aid. Most placements hold little less than body weight and falls are serious affairs. Being 10 to 15 meters (30 to 50 ft) above the last solid piece is not uncommon.

A4+: Very serious aid. Placements are often very marginal and pitches require many hours to complete.

A5: Extreme aid. No piece in the whole pitch can be trusted to hold a fall. No bolts or rivets in A5 pitches.

A6: A5 with poor belays that won’t hold a fall. The leader pops and the whole team is airborne. No one sane has ever done this, and no one insane who tried came back to tell us about it.

Where a pitch is climbed without using a hammer, the ’A’ is replaced with a ’C’ to indicate that the pitch has (and should be) climbed ’clean’.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
6-Feb-2008
12:40:23 PM
On 6/02/2008 wallwombat wrote:
>>~ “It doesn’t have to be fun, to be fun.” ~
>
>Sorry Rod, but Barry "Bubba" Blanchard said that, not Dr Doom.

Then I have sadly misquoted Aron Ralston after reading his book recently. It has now gone back to the library so I can't check and will take your word for it.

Apologies to the forum for the misinformation.

wallwombat
6-Feb-2008
12:49:56 PM
I do recall Twight using Blanchard's quote in an article in one of the seppo mags. That might be where Raalston saw it and hence the confusion.

What made you think Twight had been killed in an avalanche, Rod?

He has recently opened up a gym called "Gym Jones", where he is training people to be "Spartans". With all the loons over in seppoland, he's set to make a sqillion $$$!

The pain! The pain!

IdratherbeclimbingM9
6-Feb-2008
12:51:00 PM
>What made you think Twight had been killed in an avalanche, Rod?

Confusion on my part.
Maybe Blanchard got killed in an avalanche?
Don't ask me cosimconfused!


With that 'revised version' of the USA aid grading system, I can still see their grades becoming a dilemma through bunching up again in the future.

No one predicted that this was a possibility when they first came up with their closed system, but technology rendered the knock out blow with improved gear and techniques.
Given that technology is speeding up rather than slowing, I am of the opinion that any 'closed grading system' is headed for strife in the future.

Another interesting point is that communication / media tends to 'set' the way things are perceived, and we here in Australia are not immune to the 'americanisation' of our perceptions.
It was not so long ago when the small world of climbers had a common baseline of understanding, but in more recent times if you took a poll of USA adherents to their grading system (particularly aid), you would have had quite a bit of dissention amongst what certain grades meant (particularly the top end). Egos entered their debate and imo it degenerated somewhat to a farcical state.

Here in Australia we do not have the luxury of the big walls that they have, so for starters fall length is a much less applicable criteria here. It is a wank anyway imo because if you die falling minimal distance then what point of saying you die more by falling longer distance!

wallwombat
6-Feb-2008
1:13:52 PM
On 6/02/2008 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>It is a wank anyway imo because if you die falling minimal distance then
>what point of saying you die more by falling longer distance!

I think it is often the shortness of the fall and what you will hit that gives a pitch an A5 rating.

An example would be the first pitch of what eventually became Wyoming Sheep Ranch on El Cap. The late Kiwi climber, Bill Denz originally climbed the pitch which involved a sick amount of consecutive bat hook off the deck. Fall off the top of the pitch and you die. Period.

Modern techniques seemed to have tempered such pitches - with enough BD Talons and lots of gaffer tape, such a pitch can be made much safer.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
6-Feb-2008
1:23:25 PM
>the fall and what you will hit that gives a pitch an A5 rating

?
M8 perhaps!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Grades? schmades !!

Here is an old quote from 14/06/05 that I just re-read (from Should there be handicaps? Thread), with interest.

Steph said;
>I actually find I can onsight much harder stuff than usual when I choose not to know the grade. It's all in my head I reckon.

& I replied;
>... and once you have fired it, then you are well set up to go further!
>I find the same in aid. >If you are not familiar with how 'hard' it is 'supposed' to be and you control the head in managing to get up it, then the next grade comes more easily.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
6-Feb-2008
3:52:51 PM
wallwombat posted a more 'recent' John Long / John Middendorf version of USA aid gradings above.

Here is an older version for reference ...

25/01/05 post for historical reference ~ interesting to see how things evolve

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