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Should you put climbs up for others?

Bob Saki

18-Apr-2007
3:31:13 PM

goood on your for doing so BP, when I'm at that level I will be heading for this as a first 18 roof climb.

should have also addede:

if the bolt wasn't there I'd just wait 'til had had the cajones to send w/o the bolt.
The etihics of this is entirely for someone else to decide


nmonteith

18-Apr-2007
3:55:14 PM

to hell with it. I say bolt the whole thing with shiny u-bolts. we need grade 18 sport routes at Arapiles.

adamk

18-Apr-2007
4:39:23 PM

ooohhhh! this could get interesting!!


alrob

18-Apr-2007
5:15:35 PM

On 18/04/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>to hell with it. I say bolt the whole thing with shiny u-bolts. we need
>grade 18 sport routes at Arapiles.

here here! i'll stoke the fire a bit!


IdratherbeclimbingM9

18-Apr-2007
5:24:52 PM

On 18/04/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>to hell with it. I say bolt the whole thing with shiny u-bolts. we need
>grade 18 sport routes at Arapiles.
... like a hole in the head?

Flurries in the snow all over again T1 ??


nmonteith

18-Apr-2007
5:40:59 PM

i'm just following the natural progression of bombers argument.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

18-Apr-2007
5:45:42 PM

The end result of sanitisation being ... no climbing, because it is too dangerous in any form!


mousey

18-Apr-2007
6:17:43 PM

On 18/04/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>i'm just following the natural progression of bombers argument.

progression or just further development?


Neil

18-Apr-2007
6:28:37 PM

where's justin thyme when you need him ???


nmonteith

18-Apr-2007
6:34:36 PM

...hopefully enjoying my fine route i established in his memory, Full Metal Vengeance.


Neil

18-Apr-2007
6:37:39 PM

maybe he's holding gerry's hand out at the ben.

*yawn*.....


Macciza

18-Apr-2007
10:12:37 PM

>Oh no bomber, macca will have a cow when he reads that.
No - I really don't care
Often the current version of safe and funclimbing just ends up boring for me, though I am trying to work it
out.
Anyway we won the debate so I guess he can put put routes up for himself.
My current project is a gear route in the Blueies and I have had to resist thoughts of placing even carrots
Anyway what I thought was going to be a poor placement turn out quite ok - even though I had left the
ideal cams on the ground for some reason - it should go soon, will report back.


DaCrux

19-Apr-2007
1:16:24 AM

I really hope you reconsider bolting this route. It’s such a beautiful piece of rock and there’s probably enough pro for someone who confidently leads 18’s.

On 18/04/2007 bomber pro wrote:
>Small steps might be a way to stay alive just a bit longer josh,
>I'm not advocating that those pushing the grade of 18 try to ground up
>onsight a climb that has RP's as
>the only gear just before punching out the roof moves!
>That would be giant leaps, a small step might be to do the climb with
>the bolt and then if they feel
>strong and very confident, maybe after they consolidate the grade by doing
>a whole bunch of 18's then
>at some later point in time (after taking more small steps) they can lead
>it again and not clip the bolt, if
>thats what they want to do?
Are you serious? If people want to practice leading in a safe environment they can go to a climbing gym (and hope their belayer doesn’t drop them).


muki

19-Apr-2007
12:41:10 PM

On 19/04/2007 DaCrux wrote:
>I really hope you reconsider bolting this route. It’s such a beautiful
>piece of rock and there’s probably enough pro for someone who confidently
>leads 18’s.
>Are you serious?

Yes I am serious, I don't think that there is enough good gear to lead this safely! (and that means to
be able to fall safely!) small RP's under you as you then take on a big pumpy roof is not safe! why did
any other bolt get placed? because the first asscentionest was concerned for the safety of
themselves and any other climbers that would then repeat the climb! this is how I feel about the gear
on this climb.
The one good wire before the roof suffers because it is at the top of the slab, and when you climb out
to the roof it gets pulled up and out! changing the angle that it gets fallen on.
You are sure that there is"probably enough pro" good for you, but you have not climbed it, you are
wrong, I have climbed it and if there was a fall before any gear was placed in the roof, if a hold broke
off in the roof, or if the fall was taken on a cam in the little shelves that make up the holds at the roof
(you would have to know exactly the mechanical propertys of cams to understand my concerns about
this) then the leader would hit the slab below, then rip out the RP's then continue to fall! the end result
could look somthing like a post I read earlier

>I always wear a helmet. Why? Because I’ve worked on orthopaedic and neurosurgical wards. Maybe I
>should describe some facts about brain injuries for those who do not wear helmets. Imagine spending
>the rest of your life having no control over your bodily functions. Yeah wearing nappies is sooooo
>cool! You can even get prana once (not!). Sitting in a chair and being restrained so that you do not
>hurt yourself or other people. If you have a frontal lobe injury all your disinhibitions come out and you
>become aggressive and your actions may be inappropriate (to use a medical term). Your friends will
>come and visit you for the first couple of weeks and will be really concerned about you – but you may
>not be able to recognise them, and after trying to grope some of them they’re unlikely to be back. In
>fact after about a month only your family members will come and see you. It’s soooo cool watching
>your mother and your father totally traumatised by seeing their son or daughter in a vegetative state.
>Oh and nursing homes or long term brain injury units are really cool too. You get woken up at a
>ridiculously early time and shoved in the shower. Then you get fed – often disgusting minced stuff as
>you may not be able to swallow properly. Or even better you get fed through a tube in your stomach.
>Then you spend the rest of your day sitting in your chair or wandering around aimlessly. If you’re
>lucky your family members (who are still experiencing guilt or denial) may come and see you once a
>week. Oh and they do not have internet access in nursing homes so you cannot even go on
>chockstone when you’re bored. Great existence indeed.
>(Sorry if I’ve offended any people who have loved ones with brain injuries but I’m just trying to
>emphasise a point).

I am also sorry if I've offended any people who have brain injuries but I'm just trying to emphasise my
point.
The bolt WILL go in! and it will hopefully save a life or a permanent disability to a climber who falls at
the crux, even if it only ever saves one persons life or quality of living, then it has served its purpose.


DaCrux

19-Apr-2007
1:14:07 PM

There are plenty of other climbs with huge run outs at Arapiles. Panzer - which is only a grade 12, has 3-4m run outs on rusty pitons - why hasn't that been bolted? Dirge is a really nice climb (well the first pitch is anyway) and I would hate to see a shiny bolt right next to it, because some people will obviously try to clip it.

On 19/04/2007 bomber pro wrote:
>I have climbed it and if there was a fall before any gear was placed
>in the roof, if a hold broke
>off in the roof, or if the fall was taken on a cam in the little shelves
>that make up the holds at the roof
>(you would have to know exactly the mechanical propertys of cams to understand
>my concerns about
>this) then the leader would hit the slab below, then rip out the RP's
>then continue to fall! the end result
>could look somthing like a post I read earlier

So many ifs. Holds can break, and gear can fail on any climb – does that mean we should bolt everything? Are bolts 100% safe?

As for your quote… climbing is dangerous. That one bolt will not stop people from falling off your route and hurting themselves. Dirge is meant to be a 17 (it’s probably only a 16). How many people do you think are gonna hurt themselves if they climb Dirge and find it easy and then decide to climb the “18” (with a shiny bolt) next to it?

Of course it’s up to you whether you bolt it or not.


muki

19-Apr-2007
2:06:23 PM

On 19/04/2007 DaCrux wrote:
>There are plenty of other climbs with huge run outs at Arapiles.

the gear that is run out on this climb will not take the resulting fall, the climber will fall a total of 20+m
after the RP's fail and they WILL fail NOT if.

> Dirge is a really nice climb (well the first pitch is
>anyway) and I would hate to see a shiny bolt right next to it, because
>some people will obviously try to clip it.

The bolt will not shine! as it is painted to match the rock, and it is a seperate line 3m to the right of
Dirge, with no way to cross over and clip it without leaving the line of Dirge alltogether and traversing
at a much higher grade than 17, and even then you would have to know where the bolt is because it
will be difficult to even see it from Dirge.

>So many ifs. Holds can break, and gear can fail on any climb

Just one of these if's and the leader is dead! because the RP's failing is not an "If" its a definate when!
Dont you get it? the climb is not safe! (and that is the relative safety of rock climbing, a dangerous
sport) so as a first asscentionest I am making that call and putting it up how I would like it to be
climbed and enjoyed, not remembered as the arsehole who could'nt give a shit about the poor bastards
who have to try and deal with the shity gear, cos I can climb it without the concern of falling. those
people will have families! It is my responsibility to do the right thing, and not be selfish about the cost
the time the effort or the ego, but do the right thing by those that will climb it at 18!
The protection will be consistent with the grade, not a climb that CAN be done by mid twenty's
climbers that can handle the danger.

> Are bolts 100% safe?

This bolt wil definatly be 100% safer than the potential fall onto the RP's.

>As for your quote… climbing is dangerous. That one bolt will not stop
>people from falling off your route and hurting themselves.

No but it will stop them from killing themselves.

>Dirge is meant to be a 17 (it’s probably only a 16). How many people do you think are
>gonna hurt themselves if they climb Dirge and find it easy and then decide
>to climb the “18” (with a shiny bolt) next to it?

I am not able to stop people from hurting themselves on any climb they might attempt,
but I can control the life and death factor of this particular climb by adding some life saving gear.

>Of course it’s up to you whether you bolt it or not.

Yep thats true enuogh.
All I am trying to do is create somthing I am happy to let other climbers attempt
and survive!, then go and tell their mates what a great time they had.
Not get zipped into a black bag for attemting!


DaCrux

19-Apr-2007
3:21:04 PM

On 19/04/2007 bomber pro wrote:
>The bolt will not shine! as it is painted to match the rock, and it is
>a seperate line 3m to the right of
>Dirge, with no way to cross over and clip it without leaving the line
>of Dirge alltogether and traversing
>at a much higher grade than 17, and even then you would have to know where
>the bolt is because it
>will be difficult to even see it from Dirge.

sorry just sounded like the bolt would be right next to Dirge:
On 18/04/2007 bomber pro wrote:
>Hi, I've just put up a new route with roof climbing at grade 18 on the
>Organ Pipes, just two meters right
>of Dirge, it heads up the right arete of a small buttress directly under
>the roof on small wires & RP's,
>then blasts diagonaly up left through a nice overhang then headwall to
>the rap station.!

just out of interest, can you indicate where this route goes?

adamk

19-Apr-2007
3:28:55 PM

Geez theres some carry on. Muki puts up a new climb...awesome. Muki doesnt want people to die on it...awesome. Muki puts in a bolt so people dont die...awesome. Sure bolts arnt the tradition in Araps but whats more important upholding some tradition or letting people have fun on a climb without scaring the shit out of themselves or worse dyeing!

On 19/04/2007 DaCrux wrote:
>There are plenty of other climbs with huge run outs at Arapiles

Yep sure is but they were put up by other people. Muki can only control what he does. It sounds like he had a very thoughrough analysis of the ifs and buts before he decided to put in the bolt. He's argument that it's for those just doing 18 is valid and relevant. There are many climbs that seem to be "x" grade but you should be climbing "x" grade harder before you attempt to lead it. Does this mean it really is the grade it's given?

Anyways choice is yours. If u dont like the bolt dont do the climb or do it and ignore the bolt and take the chance on the Rps.


muki

19-Apr-2007
3:30:18 PM

From the bottom right hand side of the picture follow that arete line to the roof (RP's are used as you
come level to the beginning of that nice yellow slab) then once at the roof you go through it at a leftward
leaning 45 degrees rising traverse to a notch at the centre of the roofs lip then straight up the headwall to
the rap station 60m rap of the front of the buttress. the bolt will be located in the lip of the roof.

kieranl

19-Apr-2007
8:15:59 PM

Muki called me the other night to talk about his climb and work out where it went compared to my worthless old climb Low Note.
If you look at the earlier shot, showing the climber high on Dirge, the top pitch of Low Note takes the line of holds curving right across the top of the overhang. Muki's climb and Low Note join at the centre of the overhang. Muki's route is well clear of Dirge and, lower down crosses Bass Clef and the uninspiring Humoresque (of which the late Dennis Kemp said : "This is one of only two climbs at Arapiles that I have done and will not repeat").
Muki's bolt will not come close to compromising the experience of the other climbs in the area, particularly Dirge, the only close climb of existing significance. It may actually be a very good climb, it certainly looks good.
Muki, is the rap going to serve Dirge as well? I assume by 60m rap that you mean a 60m doubled (30m descent). It would be good if it did but I know that it will be tight.

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