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When is an Onsight an Onsight


steph

6-May-2005
11:05:55 AM

On 6/05/2005 nmonteith wrote:
>But if you already know the grade of the route you already have some beta!
>True onsight should be nude, blind-folded first ascent at a virgin crag.

very true! haha sometimes i deliberately don't ask the grade of climbs for two reasons: 1 so i can onsight it. (or die trying)
2 so i'm not put off by the fact it's not within my reach mentally.

bufsbelaybitch

6-May-2005
11:40:40 AM

At last something worth delurking for...
On 6/05/2005 nmonteith wrote:
>But if you already know the grade of the route you already have some beta!
>True onsight should be nude, blind-folded first ascent at a virgin crag.

Exactly! I've been saying this for ages!
So Neil, want to hook up sometime? I have ropes.

3b

Nottobetaken

6-May-2005
11:41:03 AM

Thanks Master of Drung - at last, someone that has mentioned the climbing experience over the actual practice of clipping gear. Surely it all merely a 'style' issue. Sure - onsight placing is more strenuous than clipping pre-placed - but in the end you're climbing the pitch free regardless - still on the sharp end. What's the case if I go out and onsight solo something - I'm not placing a bloody thing then - completely doing away with the chore of clipping anything - does that mean the ascent isn't valid? Yeah right! These discussions are always highly amusing!


rodw

6-May-2005
12:08:52 PM

Gotta agree, knowing the grade definately helps...dont know about the blind fold nude bit though


shmalec

6-May-2005
12:30:02 PM

this only matters if you are in competition or trying to sell your abilities.
in which case you can call it whatever you like as far as I'm concerned.
I don't think clipping preplaced draws rates the same as placeing bolts on lead so why call it the same.


Robb

10-May-2005
3:28:40 PM

one could say that every route simon C has climbed has been "Onsighted". ha serpentine got onsighted years ago.
i wonder if every route that simon has photographed could also be classified as "Onsighted"


anthonyk

10-May-2005
3:50:16 PM

On 6/05/2005 nmonteith wrote:
>But if you already know the grade of the route you already have some beta!
>True onsight should be nude, blind-folded first ascent at a virgin crag.

not really, an onsight isn't a scientific principle about pure, uninformed climbing, rather its defined according to the "standard onsight", which in general is approaching a crag guidebook in hand, eyeing the line from the ground and going for it.

i think the official standard onsight is encased in glass in paris somewhere, it looks like a guy belaying really badly with his fingers in his ears muttering "ho hum ho hum" really loudly and staring at the ground. generally we keep our own australian standards at the National Measurement Lab in Lindfield which is based on the international ones, but i don't know if we've got an official australian standard for the onsight as yet.


nmonteith

10-May-2005
4:24:24 PM

Old guides used to only have a rough grade, and a few sentances decribing the route. Modern guides tell you what gear to take, have topo photos with cruxes marked on them, have icons showing if it is 'bouldery' or 'pumpy' and usually have a pic taken of some climber on the route. Surely with that sort of info you have automaticly blown the onsight - without leaving the comfort of your home!

climbingjac

10-May-2005
4:53:48 PM

On 6/05/2005 shmalec wrote:
>I don't think clipping preplaced draws rates the same as placeing bolts
>on lead so why call it the same.

True... but climbing a route first shot without beta or seeing anyone else doing it, with the draws already in place takes a tad more skill than a genuine "flash" where you've watched someone climb it or be given beta. Needs to be some distinction between the two


Rich

10-May-2005
7:58:09 PM

On 6/05/2005 steph wrote:
>I think onsight refers to climbing a climb, first shot, no beta, not having
>watched anyone else do it, no takes and no rests. AND DEFINITELY NO TICKED
>HOLDS OR PREPLACED GEAR! but that's just my opinion and that's how I reckon
>the grading system works. a 21 is only a 21 if you're onsight leading it
>clean like the first ascender did.

What if you need the beta in the guide to determine where the route goes??

Na. onsight IMO is using all beta available in the guide, marks on the rock left and placing gear on lead. having said that in places like thailand where the gear is often always on routes such as tidal wave, i'd claim the onsight (if i had have got it which i didn't :()


tmarsh

10-May-2005
8:04:37 PM

On 10/05/2005 climbingjac wrote:
>True... but climbing a route first shot without beta or seeing anyone
>else doing it, with the draws already in place takes a tad more skill than
>a genuine "flash" where you've watched someone climb it or be given beta.
> Needs to be some distinction between the two

At a crag near you....

After watching Jim Schmuck siege the route, Joe Blow asked politely for a shot and flashed the climb.

Jill Doe arrived at the crag moments after Joe did a victory lap for the cameras. She asked what that route with the draws was, and if people minded her using them. She then onsighted the route with the draws in place.

Visiting European climber, Iker Crap, turned up the following day, looking for the Totem Pole, the hardest climb in Australia. Instead, helpful locals sent him up the road. Seeing a nice looking line with bolts on it, he racked up and onsighted the route, placing the draws as he went.

Sounds like a distinction to me.

Most definitional problems in the climbing world would be cured by adding a little more information. If your ascent isn't in the purest form of the style that you are referring to, explain why. eg flashed after belaying someone, redpointed second try, onsighted with the gear in place.

But at the end of the day, all this only matters if you have a sponsor who talks things up or if you are prone to spraying about your achievements without being honest about what you actually did.

Here's a thought: does knowledge about gear but ignorance about the moves constitute a flash? Coz in that case, I'll never be able to onsight Welcome To Barbados...

cheers,
tim

climbingjac

11-May-2005
12:08:34 PM

I think knowledge about gear taints the onsight somewhat... because you get away with not having to hang around, flamed out of your brain, swearing because you just tried two wires that were not the correct size. If you knew exactly which piece to place you'd slam it in real fast and be out of there in a jiffy.

Ronny

11-May-2005
2:05:09 PM

This debate illustrates the impossibility of attempting to elevate the word "onsight" to mean more than it does. This is all about trying to classify ascents with one word descriptions (ie "flash", "onsight" or whatever).

Surely 'onsight' is a word which has no meaning other than the extent of beta known about the route. The three options pretty much being no knowledge ("onsight"), second hand knowledge ("flash") or first hand knowledge ("redpoint")

So if you want to qualify the ascent any further you need to add more words! like "onsight gear in hand" (good work) "onsight gear in place" (still pretty good - but not as good as the first) or even (shock horror) "onsight on a top rope" (pretty average really).

Or maybe even other words "onsight gear in hand in the rain with no shoes and not using thumbs or heal hooks"?!?!
how far do we take the elevtion of the word "onsight" to mean more than a single word can? its pointless to do this. "onsight" relates to beta - and only beta. if you want to know more, say more.
James


Robb

11-May-2005
2:14:11 PM

dont argue with him - he's a lawyer

Ronny

11-May-2005
3:21:03 PM

as your attorney, I advise you to listen to Beefy


ShinToe Warrior

11-May-2005
3:24:01 PM

Is that 'your' as in the whole of chockstone has now retained your services, or are you talkin' to me and
you are now my attorney?

Rocky

12-May-2005
11:05:40 AM

On 6/05/2005 nmonteith wrote:
>But if you already know the grade of the route you already have some beta!
>True onsight should be nude, blind-folded first ascent at a virgin crag.

that means no chalk too!!!!

There are 37 messages in this topic.