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General Climbing Discussion

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Photography & Copyright

Chester

18-Feb-2005
5:16:27 PM

Thanks Simon,

I don't try to over-generalise too much... You just need to look at your pic on the front cover of Rock, My personal favourite type of photo, plenty of action and exposure in the one shot. Best of both worlds, top shot. Plus it's great to see Australia's best female climber getting some proper recognition, if you can call being on the front cover recognition ;-)

The example you've posted also shows your action style as well, very good example indeed.


anthonyk

18-Feb-2005
5:19:45 PM

On 18/02/2005 Onsight wrote:
>>of course there's always
>>the catch 22 of encouraging more people to the sport provides more opportunity
>>for working within the field but potentially degrades the activity, but
>>thats another story really.
> But seriously, like many climbers I don’t like to see my local crags getting
>overcrowded either but I don’t see it so much as a problem of numbers but
>of attitudes (incidentally, am I the only one who feels that climbing here
>is actually less popular than it was say five years ago?).

definitely, i would also be happy to see more involvement in the sport. the question i was touching on more was that if there was enough of a market to support the full income for a number of people (and give opportunity for others, not just a lucky few who manage to get their claws in the few available spots), would it be sustainable and maintain the ethos of the activity? of course there would be some sort of change, but once advertising forces kick in to the mentality of the sport it can bring some drastic changes i would expect.

>>in the end, whats the ideal for you guys making
>>much of a living off climbing?
>In what sense?

like what i'm talking about above. do you ideally want it to grow to be a popular and well funded activity or would you prefer it to be fairly alternative and get more attention (and $$) from elsewhere? maybe there's a good balance somewhere.

from personal experience i would say the numbers are going to drop even further over the next 5 years or so as well, as many of the 'breeding grounds' of the sport like uni clubs have a lot less people involved than in the past. close to home thats largely due to the demographic and attitude in the university changing, often 60% or more of students at unis are from overseas and often only for a short time (6-12 months), so they either don't have the cultural background to be interested in doing outdoor stuff (or anything extracurricular for that matter) or don't stick around long enough to learn anything and share it. with the introduction of VSU later this year (you think they won';t??) there'll be a huge cut to funding for things like clubs & societies which won't help either, but that doesn't mean people won't keep running clubs, there's many healthy ones overseas with little or no funding. overall this country is leaning heavily towards a utilitarian approach to education and pushing cultural elements into dark corners, to a large extent it seems as though people are not inclined to take part in anything unless its being sold to them these days.


Phil Box

21-Feb-2005
5:36:57 PM

Interesting perspective you have there anthonyk. I will put a counter proposal to you that indeed the decline you foretell in uni climbing may well be made up for in other areas of climbing such as the booming competition circuit at the gyms and the kids clubs that are being fostered at the gyms. We see an ever increasing number of people taking up the sport from places like Kangaroo Point cliffs in Brisvegas and other accessible crags where outdoor companies thrive. Gym junkies get tired of the same old thing and wish to challenge themselves on real rock and take up the challenge to crossover to the dark side.

Place on top of that the ever increasing interest in schools sending kids to adventure ed camps and we will see a burgeoning interest in the outdoors generally and in climbing specifically.

The unis will have to catch up then won`t they.


anthonyk

22-Feb-2005
7:39:52 PM

ok fair enough. of course my opinion is based on what i see around me which is obviously different to other people. from my impression there has been a fairly clear drop in outdoor retail sales in sydney over the last year or so as well, especially in specialised gear, ie stuff climbers & bushwalkers etc buy (as opposed to urban/travel stuff or car camping). people are moving towards the cheap and dodgy and not seeming so inclined to take up more skill-based activities. but maybe thats just a sydney thing, and maybe its a short-term trend.


cheesehead

23-Feb-2005
12:11:01 AM

I'm glad this topic got aired, Simon :)

Some good points, especially about being able to survive as a climbing photographer, climber, etc.
So far, I've found the UK and Canadian climbing mags aren't vastly different from Rock. The editors tend to stick with the formula (and therefore usually the photographers) they know. Most established or serious photog's don't tend to devote too much time and energy to them, almost like one would a stock library (Simon, I've found Alistair Lee insightful RE stock).
The US mags seem a lot better - more open to new people and ideas. I guess a lot of this is due to the greater market, and more widespread nature or recreational rock climbing in the country. Through this and other avenues, there tends to be more money in it at various levels. In hindsight, perhaps the US recreational scene is what you're alluding to, Anthony?

With respect to subjects rights, as opposed to the photog's copyrights, it seems that editorial usage doesn't pose problems for people, but advertising is where model releases, etc come into play.... a very uninspiring area to get into.
Does anyone else have much dealing with releases, and the necessity of them for different uses?

Onsight

27-Feb-2005
11:49:24 PM

On 18/02/2005 Chester wrote:
>I don't try to over-generalise too much...
Yeah, cheers Gavin, I’m sure. I was just kidding really as it’s a generalisation that has been made before.
> My personal favourite type of photo, plenty
>of action and exposure in the one shot. Best of both worlds, top shot.
I’m totally with you there – combining action and setting (particularly that shows what’s special about the route and/or the place) can provide some of the most satisfying shots IMO.

Onsight

27-Feb-2005
11:49:57 PM

On 18/02/2005 anthonyk wrote:
>definitely, i would also be happy to see more involvement in the sport.
> the question i was touching on more was that if there was enough of a
>market to support the full income for a number of people (and give opportunity
>for others, not just a lucky few who manage to get their claws in the few
>available spots), would it be sustainable and maintain the ethos of the
>activity?
You sure know the interesting questions to ask Anthony!

Well I guess it all depends on what those people were doing. If they were working things like access and cliffcare type activities then it might be pretty important to its sustainability in some areas. If they are working on (or contributing to) publications (like magazines) that shares the ethos — and excites us to it — then that could be a good thing too (for example I’d love to see more great climbing writers here but currently there’s little incentive or opportunity). I’m not sure what other jobs there’d be, perhaps coaches/trainers (there’s already a lot of guiding) and it’s hard to know what effect they’d have – depends how you define the activity. You’re talking about rock climbing here I presume – because I am.

>of course there would be some sort of change, but once advertising
>forces kick in to the mentality of the sport it can bring some drastic
>changes i would expect.
>>>in the end, whats the ideal for you guys making
>>>much of a living off climbing?
>>In what sense?
>
>like what i'm talking about above. do you ideally want it to grow to
>be a popular and well funded activity or would you prefer it to be fairly
>alternative and get more attention (and $$) from elsewhere? maybe there's
>a good balance somewhere.
Well I too hope there is a balance somewhere because my answer to that is most definitely BOTH! I’d like to see some areas of activity well funded but at the same time I very much want the activity to remain somewhat alternative (I’d don’t know if that’s possible – but you did ask me my ideal). I think what we are losing now – and in grave danger of losing even further – is the ‘culture’ of climbing in this country. ‘Culture’ perhaps isn’t the right word, perhaps ‘ethos’ as you used above, but perhaps more so the ‘vibe’, the ‘atmosphere’, the ‘soul’ that existed before and is one of the great things that makes climbing so different to most other so called “sports”.

Call me sentimental but I’ve been climbing 22 years and have seen massive changes - and it's not all good. Pretty much gone is the full-time Arapiles scene and I think that is a great shame. My personal assessment is that there has been a steady drop off in numbers here over the last five years (at least a far as rock climbing is concerned — and just based on what I’ve seen at the crags — would be interesting to know industry inside figures for a more factual assessment). But I’m not just concerned about fewer numbers but a whole host of things that are challenging the “sport” here at the moment. And, sorry Phil, but I somehow doubt that the current indoor bouldering series is in anyway going to be some great saviour (although I do expect your opinion there is going to be widely held) particularly as it’s just as likely diverting energy, attention and resources away from more “worthwhile” activities (IMO) which might be more in line with the ethos of the sport, remind us of it, and inspire us all. There are of course many broader cultural/lifestyle factors at play but things like the sometime lack of "industry" support for our top rock climbers is really disappointing.

Totally off-topic now of course but that's OK.


anthonyk

28-Feb-2005
8:43:23 PM

yeah. in the end my questions are pretty irrelevant if its in a bit of decline overall anyway, you don't have to worry about it being taken over by the masses (or even just "other types of people/attitudes", 'scuse the prejudice) when its so far from that anyway.

i guess if something would bring more people out then bring it on hey.. worry about the details later.


nmonteith

11-Mar-2005
9:08:43 AM

A bit off topic - Does Bourge/Hex posting other peoples photos on their threads breach copyright? I imagine we are effectily hosting 'pirate' photography much like someone hosting MP3's.

Dave C

11-Mar-2005
10:27:47 AM

Don't know if this relates directly Neil but I recently found some of my photos appearing on a commercial website without my permission (they had simply copied them out of the UKC galleries despite the warnings about copyright on the site.)
I immediately sent an invoice requiring payment for their use accompanied by a letter written by my regular climbing partner (who happens to be a barrister - very useful.)
Needless to say the offending pictures have now disappeared but I kept copies of the pages on a CD and my legal counsel has now issued another letter to them requesting payment as invoiced or legal action may be taken. According to the advice I have I will win if I choose to pursue it.
In general I have no problem with anyone using my pictures in a post on this site or any other non-commercial forum but others may not feel the same way. It needs to be kept in mind I think.
The only picture I have included in a post was copied with the permission of the photographer (another partner in crim.....I mean climbing.)

Ronny

11-Mar-2005
11:56:17 AM

Neil,
I think this is a really interesting quesiton. It concerns the divide between editorial content and commercial use. At one extreme, there is no question that you can't go and use someone else's photos for commercial purposes without consent, but at the other end, there are legitimate uses for photos - for example if you were writing something about an advert that appeared in a particular magazine (for a news paper or academic journal or something), you would be able to reproduce it in some form (there will be some restrictions on this but I'm not sure what). Another legitimate purpose is in conversation, taking the magazien and showing it to your friends and making some comment about it.
Using photos on this forum is arguably fairly similar to the last example - except of course they are used out of context and with no credit given to the source.

I'll try to lookup whatever I can find on this over the weekend, and will let you know what I turn up.
James


nmonteith

11-Mar-2005
12:09:13 PM

I think a simple credit line would keep us out of trouble for the moment. I look forward to the results of your research James!


cheesehead

12-Mar-2005
12:56:11 AM

On 11/03/2005 nmonteith wrote:
>I think a simple credit line would keep us out of trouble for the moment.

A good start for sure. I suspect that any use of a photo that's not yours is a breach...

As for one's own pics, do you guys think that watermarks at least minimise piracy like Dave and Simon are talking about? Obviously, it doesn't stop it.

by the way Dave, according to Sloper's advice, have you had to invoice a sensible amount for the photo usage, or could you for argument's sake ask for £10,000 per image? Just curious how this works.

Dave C

12-Mar-2005
6:38:46 AM

Hey Matt
I contacted a couple of other photographers who post on UKC to check the going rate for web use of pictures and invoiced accordingly.

As far as digital watermarking goes, UKC certainly do that with all pictures posted in their galleries, that's why you cannot upload any pictures directly yourself, their admin adds the watermark before they are put on show.


anthonyk

19-May-2005
4:50:14 PM

(bump)

there's a trick i've seen in graphic design a bit where people take the outline of something in a photo and use it in a separate context. how much would a photographer feel that this infringed on his copyright of the original image?

its obviously creating a new work, but lets say the shapes of the scene in the original image were unique, would the photographer feel like they were being taken advantage of if someone took those images and used them freely?

of course the scene itself that the photographer took a photo of isn't copyrighted, anyone could be there and look at the scene, but the image itself is a work created by the photographer. borrowing from that image is taking a bit from both but definitely makes use of the image captured by the photographer, but in another sense the new image/design isn't made up of the actual photograph.


nmonteith

19-May-2005
5:10:19 PM

I had an incident of this happening recently with my photos. The design was a t-shirt - which featured outlines of a climber from a series of photos I shot. We negoiated a settlment - although the designer reckoned I didn't have a leg to stand on in regards copyright.

Ronny

19-May-2005
6:10:57 PM

I think it all depends really...(standard lawyer answer)
...both for how you would feel and the legal issue.

eg - if you get a generaic photo of the sydney harbour bridge and trace the outline and put that on a t-shirt - the photographer prob wouldn't feel bad at all, and it wouldn't be infringing copyright, as really what you're reproducing is an outline of a coathanger with no reference to the particular photo

but if you took a very specific 'outline style' climbing photo taken by someone on a particular route, and used the specific outline the photographer would probably justifyable be a bit pissed off, and it would in all likelihood breach copyright. (they may have been having you on neil - but then its in their interest to do so)
James


ShinToe Warrior

19-May-2005
6:22:47 PM

On 19/05/2005 nmonteith wrote:
We negoiated a settlment - although the designer reckoned I didn't have a leg to stand on in regards
copyright.

If you had no claim, the designer would have been less likely to settle

Onsight

19-May-2005
9:14:17 PM

On 19/05/2005 anthonyk wrote:
>there's a trick i've seen in graphic design a bit where people take the
>outline of something in a photo and use it in a separate context. how
>much would a photographer feel that this infringed on his copyright of
>the original image?
I feel it would be a breach of copyright and would not be happy about the usage unless I gave prior permission. I actually had a query from a UK clothing company about a similar usage two weeks ago. But haven't heard back since I told them their offer of one free T-shirt wouldn't wash.

Neil, I reckon you'd likely have a case but with these sort of smaller breaches it comes down to how much time and money you're will to waste (invest?) in pursuing them. But of course he settled.

gfdonc

19-May-2005
10:13:38 PM

Hey, now you remind me .. I filled in my "Run to the G" entry form yesterday, it contained the following clause:

"I understand that the Events may be photographed, videotaped, or otherwise recorded, and I grant the Organisers the worldwide right in perpetuity, to use my name or likeness in any form and for any purpose, without approval or compensation
to me or to any third party."

Bullshit! I thought. Crossed out the last 15 words and sent it in.
Happy for them to take my picture but "for any purpose"? What idiot wrote that in the hope they would get away with it?
One-sided contracts are my grump for the week.
- Steve

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