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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 2 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 42
Author
Grampians Access - comments.

gremlin
20-Feb-2019
6:42:37 PM
See now this guy kinda gets it...

Unlearn those oppressive behaviours, be progressive, change that behaviour, aim high. Society is rapidly changing.
rightarmbad
20-Feb-2019
7:17:47 PM
Obvious here is a total misunderstanding of first Australians connection with the land,
It is also obvious that climbers here are still judging actions based on their own perceptions, not native Australians.
Maybe a little self education as to why you see things differently and attempt to understand why the word oppression pops up regularly and simply gets dismissed.

gremlin
21-Feb-2019
4:55:04 AM
I'm not Australian... We are not "yours", we are sovereign people with our own nations.

E. Wells
21-Feb-2019
7:38:46 AM
Here I was thinking this was all about the phenomenal impact and infrastructure of the new commercial venture called 'grampians peaks trail' which is the tip of the iceberg in terms of the transition from state owned conservation towards commercialising the asset , and parks identifying the people who are most difficult to exploit commercially and also who are most likely to oppose massive industrial manipulations to the landscape. How ironic and what a success , lets maul our own tails shall we. What a grand distraction.

gordoste
21-Feb-2019
9:40:05 AM
The excitement about a proposal for a 70% income tax rate on the rich that will increase tax take by a whopping 0.3% really sums up the quality of progressive thinking - the same quality as the thinking behind a wall. The progressive are in love with being woke, rather than actually doing something effective. You'll see a bunch of people posting passionately about oppression in climbing while the folks at Cliffcare and Aboriginal Victoria do the real work of compromise and inevitably get criticised by all sides.

gremlin
21-Feb-2019
10:45:45 AM
From my point of view, i think western climbers around the globe need to go through a process of decolonisation.

Climbing has a _very_ deep colonialist streak to it, British, German, French colonial/wwII left overs?

... as the only indigenous climber on this continent that i've ever met (hmu if your out there!), i don't think many of you realise how much of a middle class, elitist and inaccessible pursuit climbing is to poor and black/indig people around the world.

From how Sherpas are treated and economically exploited in Nepal, is interlinked with Cartzen's Pyramid (or the Freeport mine) and the genocide taking place in West Papua, to the commercialisation of Thailand, Latin America and other 'third world countries', is also intersectionally entwined with indigenous cultural heritage rights here.

These self-entitled attitudes really need to change.


Indigenous people have a right to protect their cultural heritage and history.

Racist behaviour is learned and often subconscious due to indoctrination by the nation-state education system.
IE: cRaptain cRook...

Using greater numbers to exploit the inherit flaws and institutionalised racism within representative capitalist democracy, to oppose and reverse those hard won rights by indigenous people is extremely oppressive, white supremacist and a form of genocide. (Yes, go read up on your UN declarations and international laws about this!)

I'm glad this little storm in a tea cup has caused a few of you to think and revise your initial campaign from something reactionary and regressive, into something that is starting to look a _little_ more progressive.

Duang Daunk
21-Feb-2019
11:11:01 AM
On 21-Feb-2019 gremlin wrote:
>I'm not Australian... We are not "yours", we are sovereign people with our own nations.

Pandoras Box right there ^.

Watch out bro gremlin in the chockstones, lest divided you are conquered and fallen.

By the way. I checked out the link you posted earlier and read the sorry history of how the Aboriginals got parts of their land back in Vic, and how in a sense their legal fight for it was made harder by the Mabo decision, along with others being given a place at the negotiating table due having an ‘interest’ in the said lands (eg beekeepers), but the true landowners having to go through the extra hoops of proving their heritage/interest...
It appeared to me that some brethren ‘sovereign nationals’ muddied the legal waters at that time...
One Day Hero
21-Feb-2019
11:19:05 AM
On 21-Feb-2019 gremlin wrote:
>... as the only indigenous climber on this continent that i've ever met
>(hmu if your out there!)

There was a young guy climbing in Canberra in the early 2000s (who was really good). He either quit or left town 15 years ago.

E. Wells
21-Feb-2019
11:21:28 AM
You know when someone loses theyre job because they attended an annual christmas party dressed as a climber , I dont call that 'progressive'. You are most certainly not the only indigenous climber on the continent , and yes , I do agree that many outdoor pursuits reek of colonial conquest and eliteism , even moreso now as the gear becomes so expensive. Many bolters spend vast amounts of time in solitude in very beautiful and special places and do retain a reverence and respect for the wild places , but fail to grasp the specific consequence of adding stainless steel to a slowly decaying 180,000,000 year old sedimentary deposit. I can visualise lunches being sprayed across desks as I state this , but I believe the reaction of repulsion and disdain when someone notices bolts in a cliff to be one peculiar to the colonist agrophobe also. How dare others have trodden here before me and found pleasure in altering my garden of eden! Cast them to the serpents!
One Day Hero
21-Feb-2019
11:54:16 AM
On 21-Feb-2019 E. Wells wrote:
>I do agree that many outdoor pursuits reek of colonial conquest
>and eliteism , even moreso now as the gear becomes so expensive.

This is a myth. Gear is as cheap or cheaper now (in actual dollar amounts) than when I started in 1994. In adjusted prices, stuff is way cheaper! For example, my first pair of shoes were scarpa forces which I think were $200, camalots were going for about $120 each. Minimum wage was 7 bucks an hour or something, I was getting 10 bucks an hour at my casual evening job. Most young kiddies who claim they need bolts everywhere because they can't afford a rack are full of shit.

>I believe the reaction of repulsion
>and disdain when someone notices bolts in a cliff to be one peculiar to
>the colonist agrophobe also. How dare others have trodden here before me
>and found pleasure in altering my garden of eden!

Get yer hand off it, Daryl. If this is your understanding of why a large segment of the climbing population and most bushwalkers get the shits with exponential sport climbing expansion, you're not even trying.
One Day Hero
21-Feb-2019
1:31:53 PM
On 21-Feb-2019 gremlin wrote:
>...i don't think many of you realise how much of
>a middle class, elitist and inaccessible pursuit climbing is to poor and
>black/indig people around the world.

How much of that do you reckon is oppression, and how much is just geography and culture? I don't think I'd be a rock climber if I lived in W.A. (too flat), or N.T. and Qld (too fuching hot for 10 months of the year).

Also, I'm pretty sure that footy is more fun than climbing. I started playing wogball at age 5 (because I have a woggy dad, and that's the sport all good woggy kids play). I still play every week, and it's way better bang for your buck than climbing. While climbing is definitely mayo, I reckon soccer is olive oil and pickled cabbage. Does that mean there's discrimination in soccer which needs to be addressed?

I'm not against affirmative action (or whatever it gets called these days), but of my non-climbing friends who I introduced to climbing, none of them really caught the bug and stayed in the sport. It just doesn't grab everyone. There seem to be pretty good reasons other than overt discrimination and socio-economic discrimination why the climbing demographic might be as it is.

E. Wells
21-Feb-2019
3:03:22 PM
Well im all ears.
rightarmbad
21-Feb-2019
6:40:54 PM
On 21-Feb-2019 gremlin wrote:
>I'm not Australian... We are not "yours", we are sovereign people with
>our own nations.

Everybody here understood what I wrote and there was never a suggestion of you being ours.

But this does clearly demonstrate the huge gulf between aboriginal peoples and my own.
Even if it is just ignorance of semantics.
One Day Hero
21-Feb-2019
8:13:27 PM
On 21-Feb-2019 E. Wells wrote:
>Well im all ears.

Which bit?
anthonycuskelly
22-Feb-2019
5:57:21 AM
@Gremlin, thanks for the resource and thought-provoking viewpoint (this conversation doesn't need another middle-class white male viewpoint).

IdratherbeclimbingM9
22-Feb-2019
12:47:00 PM
On 22-Feb-2019 anthonycuskelly wrote:
>@Gremlin, thanks for the resource and thought-provoking viewpoint (this
>conversation doesn't need another middle-class white male viewpoint).

+1 on providing a good thread for provoking thought.

On 20-Feb-2019 gremlin wrote
>See now this guy kinda gets it...

There are more than a few out there who kinda get it...

>Unlearn those oppressive behaviours, be progressive, change that behaviour, aim high. Society is rapidly changing.

?
Great ideal, but I'm not hopeful that it will come to pass in my lifetime, when I look at our current and potentially upcoming crop of short-yardstick political (would be) rulers.
Events overseas like potential wall builders, don't inspire confidence in moral leadership change either...
:~(
Of course none of that should inhibit us trying to effect positive change.
:~)

This whole thread kind of reminds me of a couple of Yusef / Cat Stevens song lyrics...
>"Well I know we've come a long way, we're changing day to day, but tell me, where do the children play?"
&
>"And sometimes you have to moan when nothing seems to suit you, but never the less you know, that you're locked towards the future... So on and on we go, the seconds tick the time out, there's so much left to know, and we're on the road to find out ..."


vwills
22-Feb-2019
3:21:34 PM

... as the only indigenous climber on this continent that i've ever met.....

Somehow this evokes “ I’m the only gay in the village” scene in my head.

It seems elitism can cut both ways.

I have had the pleasure of speaking with a number of indigenous people about climbing, a couple of whom have climbed and think it is a great recreation and have been welcoming. I also recognise that this feeling isn’t unanimous and as with any community, there will be differences of opinion.

This in no way justifies damage to indigenous cultural heritage, but it gives me hope that climbing can coexist in areas of sensitivity, and although there must be areas that are off limits, hopefully all parties can come up with some creative solutions that don’t block access completely to large areas of the land. Unfortunately areas of stark geological relief are always going to be significant to First Nations and create potential for conflict. These areas are also significant to other outdoor communities, and sometimes it isn’t indigenous concerns that mean access should be closed, but the need for protection for flora or fauna. I have been impressed by the number of climbers who “get” this and have had similar feelings of disquiet about where climbing is headed with unchecked route “ development”.

Trying to teach people about the need for respect of the environment, of cultural heritage and even of climbing history, is important.



gremlin
23-Feb-2019
7:52:40 AM
I don't think you grasp quite what i mean or what daily oppression looks like to indigenous people.

Climbing is kinda like the TV show Neighbours... and there's no big family of blackfullas on Neighbours.
... this is why every time i go climbing, no one ever gets my jokes. *boom tish*

Most of our lives we (blackfellas) go about the world in an alien society/culture that is completely different from the life we experience at home/on country. Language, humour, fashion, food, etc. Everything.

... another interesting subconscious behaviour.

The fear, that once power and control is given up, that abusing positions of privilege, might result in repercussions, and the associated paranoid belief, that those that were oppressed are now only seeking to reverse that oppression and abuse in order to exact some kind of revenge. Kinda like FOMO? :P
rightarmbad
23-Feb-2019
6:36:02 PM
Vanessa dismisses oppression of native people, yet sees the far more minor problem of connecting sexual violence with everyday speech as significant.
Take the sexual violence problem and multiply it by a million, then reconsider your stance.
Rawpowa!
23-Feb-2019
6:45:11 PM
On 23-Feb-2019 rightarmbad wrote:
>Vanessa dismisses oppression of native people, yet sees the far more minor
>problem of connecting sexual violence with everyday speech as significant.
>Take the sexual violence problem and multiply it by a million, then reconsider
>your stance.

Why? You're clearly talking hyperbole, hopefully this can be a vaguely rational destruction. YB talks of the oppression he felt watching Neibours, maybe he could have liberated the remote and watched the excellent Wildside. Sometimes we oppress ourselves.

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