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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 7 of 11. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 205
Author
Grampians Access 2019
Access T CliffCare
11-Mar-2019
3:14:11 PM
On 10-Mar-2019 Nottobetaken wrote:
snip
>
>That said, it's pretty clear that PV had this on their radar to begin
>with, and no amount of stakeholder meetings or otherwise was going to change
>that. It seems PV are operating on a 'depends who you talk to' policy -
>and deliberately confusing the issue through inconsistent and/or lack of
>communication toward the climbing community. Not even Cliffcare understands
>the picture and in many cases simple phone calls by climbers themselves
>or face to face meetings are gaining more clarity. This is obviously a
>PV strategy, as the more climbers are confused by what closures are in
>place, the more climbers will confront the situation with Parks officials
>on the ground, leading to some pretty colourful conversations. If I drive
>6 hours from Adelaide, 14 hours from Sydney, or 4 from Melbourne - only
>to be met by a PV ranger telling me that xxx area that I'm in is closed
>only to climbers (despite no communication otherwise/no signage/and contrary
>to notifications on their website/ABC radio interviews and the like - I'll
>be telling them where they can stick that.

I would like to be able to respond to the wealth of questions and comments that are out there, be it on Chockstone or other social media sites, but the reality is at the moment there aren't enough hours in the day for the work that is being done. But this response to your comment -
>Not even Cliffcare understands
>the picture and in many cases simple phone calls by climbers themselves
>or face to face meetings are gaining more clarity.

might shed some light on not 'understanding the picture' What is important is that any of the information that CliffCare and the working group share is information that has to the best of our knowledge been clarified.

I have spent a good part of the last couple of weeks on the phone back and forth between various people and offices of Parks Victoria, discussing the recent messaging with maps and info sheet, highlighting the ambiguity, addressing the questions that people are asking and then going back again and discussing more.

The noise out there is full of 'he said, she said, they said, we said'. We are getting closer to information that is on the same page but it can't be said enough that what we are dealing with here is not a fix this bit up and all is good. This is complex and layered and there is no quick fix. When we have clear messaging that answers some of the questions, then we will make a statement saying there has been clarification. At the moment, one persons clarity totally contradicts another persons clarity.

Once we get some of this in place (along with a multitude of other things), then we can actually start to address the very real concerns and issues of what got us here in the first place. And that is on both sides. 'This has been a long time coming' sums up quite well the real concerns and issues of what got us here in the first place.
Nottobetaken
12-Mar-2019
3:26:32 PM
On 11-Mar-2019 Access T CliffCare wrote:

>The noise out there is full of 'he said, she said, they said, we said'.

Yep - and this is what PV said...
https://savegrampiansclimbing.org/2019/03/11/parks-victoria-out-in-force-over-long-weekend/

The summary at the end is award winning: 'So where does that put us now? Who really knows is the answer that most accurately describes our predicament.'

BA
13-Mar-2019
7:57:08 AM
I have been following all this stuff with some interest and thought I'd share some of the notes that are in "The Black Guide" that I produced in 1997.

On page ix. "Climbing and abseiling will continue to be allowed and accpeted as a valid recreation in most of Victoria's parks if climbers are resposible, observe the basic principles of conservation and respect local climbing values, ethics and traditions."

On page xiii. "Red Rock Bushland Reserve is known to climbers as Black Ian's Rocks and contains Aboriginal rock art and motifs. Routes have already been established that climb over these and chalk represents a real problem. Some of this artwork is very faint, so please examine any climb you do before starting it, then let your consience decide if you are going to deface the artwork with your chalk and/or sweat."

Also on page xiii. "The black Range and Mt. Talbot will also be the subject of Draft Managemnt plans at a later date. These areas also contain many art sites."

I have no more to say (probably!).
Access T CliffCare
13-Mar-2019
8:03:04 AM
On 13-Mar-2019 BA wrote:
>I have been following all this stuff with some interest and thought I'd
>share some of the notes that are in "The Black Guide" that I produced in
>1997.
>
>On page ix. "Climbing and abseiling will continue to be allowed and accpeted
>as a valid recreation in most of Victoria's parks if climbers are resposible,
>observe the basic principles of conservation and respect local climbing
>values, ethics and traditions."
>
>On page xiii. "Red Rock Bushland Reserve is known to climbers as Black
>Ian's Rocks and contains Aboriginal rock art and motifs. Routes have already
>been established that climb over these and chalk represents a real problem.
>Some of this artwork is very faint, so please examine any climb you do
>before starting it, then let your consience decide if you are going to
>deface the artwork with your chalk and/or sweat."
>
>Also on page xiii. "The black Range and Mt. Talbot will also be the subject
>of Draft Managemnt plans at a later date. These areas also contain many
>art sites."
>
>I have no more to say (probably!).

Thanks Bill. That guide has been close to my hand for a couple of years now.
There is always more to say :-)
Stugang
13-Mar-2019
8:43:54 PM
Bommers got a point. There has been a lot of crap bolted in the Grampians under the guise of “development for the community”.....pfffft. Anytime anything less than mindless backslapping and arse kissing has been aired for this “community work” it has been shut down with a stupid repetition of the same populist sh!t.

We actually had a chance to find a middle ground.

Duang Daunk
14-Mar-2019
2:58:13 PM
On 13-Mar-2019 Stugang wrote:
>Bommers got a point. There has been a lot of crap bolted in the Grampians
>under the guise of “development for the community”.....pfffft. Anytime
>anything less than mindless backslapping and arse kissing has been aired
>for this “community work” it has been shut down with a stupid repetition
>of the same populist sh!t.
>
>We actually had a chance to find a middle ground.
... but I don’t really believe that, given the personalities involved-
Stugang
14-Mar-2019
6:39:54 PM
Yeh maybe but it was at one time a possibility even if it was unrealistic given blah blah blah.

What we can influence is the situation right now. What is disheartening is the deathly silence of the “community developers”. No mea culpa.....nothing.

One can only assume that they don’t see any fault in themselves OR they think if they dig their heels in they can win an argument based on tired and failed logic (if you think that “PV have been inconsistent” is a gotcha argument then you need to have a brain scan!) OR they are gutless to face up to past errors.

Gremlins posts were the best thing to happen to this forum for a long time. Unfortunately it doesn’t seem that anyone that should have replied had the guts to actually reply.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
14-Mar-2019
6:58:34 PM
On 14-Mar-2019 Stugang wrote:
>Yeh maybe but it was at one time a possibility even if it was unrealistic
>given blah blah blah.
>
>What we can influence is the situation right now. What is disheartening
>is the deathly silence of the “community developers”. No mea culpa.....nothing.
>
>
>One can only assume that they don’t see any fault in themselves OR they
>think if they dig their heels in they can win an argument based on tired
>and failed logic (if you think that “PV have been inconsistent” is a gotcha
>argument then you need to have a brain scan!) OR they are gutless to face
>up to past errors.
>
>Gremlins posts were the best thing to happen to this forum for a long
>time. Unfortunately it doesn’t seem that anyone that should have replied
>had the guts to actually reply.

+1 to an interesting and likely correct view of our present reality.
... The problem with this view as I see it, is that no amount of ‘mea culpa’ will rectify our collective situation, because good will and even good (pro-active) deeds, cut little ice with a bureaucratic/political system.

Is it too early to say RIP Grampians climbing?

The good Dr
14-Mar-2019
8:26:42 PM
>What we can influence is the situation right now. What is disheartening
>is the deathly silence of the “community developers”. No mea culpa.....nothing.
>

There is an interesting nexus here as development of significant areas now under focus occurred prior to the 2003 Management Plan. Many of the developers created routes at a time when the current SPAs were not defined or even considered. The release of the 2003 management plan was poorly communicated to climbers by PV (or whoever they were at the time). At that point, there were opportunities to inform guidebook authors, the few that there were, and start the climber education process. This obviously was not considered important at the time. The growth of bouldering was also a bit out of left field as well. This is not to say that some pre, and particularly post 2003 developments were idiotic, short-sighted and driven by ego, rather than careful consideration.

Another difficulty is that the 2003 MP is filled with considerable inconsistencies and interpretation problems (like the current defined SPAs). The devil is in the detail. The current maps being issued by parks do not align with the written detail in the MP. The maps provided are 'not to scale' and as such should be considered representative only. The MP states that the SPAs occupy <<1% of the park. The representative maps indicate vastly greater areas. There is no reference to the source of the defined areas in the MP and where these accurately mapped documents are available.

With the current escalated situation, please respect the current bans. If fined, fight the fine. An experienced barrister noted to me that they would have a fun filled field day with PV in court due to the 2003 MP vagaries, current documents in circulation, the PV assistance to climbers and past documents provided by PV indicating areas open to climbing within the SPAs (at a minimum).

IdratherbeclimbingM9
14-Mar-2019
8:36:48 PM
On 14-Mar-2019 The good Dr wrote:
>>What we can influence is the situation right now. What is disheartening
>>is the deathly silence of the “community developers”. No mea culpa.....nothing.
>>
>
>There is an interesting nexus here as development of significant areas
>now under focus occurred prior to the 2003 Management Plan. Many of the
>developers created routes at a time when the current SPAs were not defined
>or even considered. The release of the 2003 management plan was poorly
>communicated to climbers by PV (or whoever they were at the time). At that
>point, there were opportunities to inform guidebook authors, the few that
>there were, and start the climber education process. This obviously was
>not considered important at the time. The growth of bouldering was also
>a bit out of left field as well. This is not to say that some pre, and
>particularly post 2003 developments were idiotic, short-sighted and driven
>by ego, rather than careful consideration.
>
>Another difficulty is that the 2003 MP is filled with considerable inconsistencies
>and interpretation problems (like the current defined SPAs). The devil
>is in the detail. The current maps being issued by parks do not align with
>the written detail in the MP. The maps provided are 'not to scale' and
>as such should be considered representative only. The MP states that the
>SPAs occupy <<1% of the park. The representative maps indicate vastly greater
>areas. There is no reference to the source of the defined areas in the
>MP and where these accurately mapped documents are available.
>
>With the current escalated situation, please respect the current bans.
>If fined, fight the fine. An experienced barrister noted to me that they
>would have a fun filled field day with PV in court due to the 2003 MP vagaries,
>current documents in circulation, the PV assistance to climbers and past
>documents provided by PV indicating areas open to climbing within the SPAs
>(at a minimum).

While I agree with your post, it’s sad that to instigate some common sense into the current situation we have to resort to ‘fighting any fines’...
Stugang
14-Mar-2019
9:56:41 PM
Hey good dr

Although im sure it isn’t a secret but I’m not 100% sure who you are. other than I think I probably know you! Either way hello! And hope you are well.

In any case I’m not sure pointing to inconsistencies in previous rule enforcers is going to be productive. It is worth keeping in the back pocket as a “just in case” argument to add to a more persuasive argument but isn’t convincing in and of itself.

IMO Pointing out inconsistencies such as these temporarily make us feel a bit better (there is a certain nobility in being the oppressed victim) but it don’t really get us much toward the endgame which I hope is a balanced outcome between access for climbing and protection of the significant sites for the first inhabitants.
(removed)
15-Mar-2019
8:23:47 AM
On 14-Mar-2019 Stugang wrote:
>... but it don’t really get us much toward the endgame which I hope is a balanced
>outcome between access for climbing and protection of the significant sites
>for the first inhabitants.

... and the environment.

I am utterly convinced that the items of environmental damage (some real and a lot perceived) including:
  • excessive chalk
  • bouldering mat vegetation damage
  • bolting
  • additional walking paths
  • litter (specifically dunny paper)
  • cliff-base erosion
... are the real issues they care about. The first inhabitants argument looks like a PV crutch to achieve these outcomes.

Let's be clear: PV don't want to ban us because they hate climbing as an activity, they want to ban us because they think it's wrecking the place. Any other interpretation is simply playing the victim card.

Macciza
15-Mar-2019
8:44:43 AM
Well said, Bomber ...
Certainly agree, until some of the rabid, grid-bolting 'developers' exercise some restraint, whether personally or by the community, the situation will continue to get worse .
I find it quite bizarre that so much dodgy developing is continuing unabated in the Blueies at the moment in spite of the Grampians situation ... They are creating the access issues of the future, bolting in places that they shouldn't and yet will then decry the ensuing bans as unfair despite creating the situation themselves
Time for greater community response against them methinks ...
johny
15-Mar-2019
9:51:49 AM
I hope is a balanced
>outcome between access for climbing and protection of the significant sites
>for the first inhabitants.

PV released a written statement and got on the radio demonizing climbers for destroying Aboriginal Art sites. Although the two bolts placed near art sites were regrettable and hopefully the only instances, I think most climbers agree these isolated instances do nut justify a climbing ban in the entire N Grampians.

PV implied through these statements that they had a mandate from indigenous groups to ban all climbing in the SPA (most of the N Grampians). This is probably not true.

Its obvious that there is a schism in PV with some rogue element hell bent on banning climbing in the entire Grampians(Victoria?) and others in PV who realize this is a really bad idea. The SPA is suppose to ban other activities like bushwalking yet PV is not enforcing this. The fact that you guys can pay me to take you climbing in these areas should let you know how ridiculous the bans are. These bans will not last long. They simply can not.

There are two things I want everyone to understand.
1. This is NOT climbers vs indigenous Australians. PV has tried really hard to make it look like this but it is obviously more than this. My point here is do not feel like you are harming indigenous australians by wanting to reverse the bans. Do not feel guilty for being a climber. I do not believe PV represents indigenous Australians. PV is all over the place from top down, internally inconsistent and contradictory.

2.This ban can be reversed tomorrow. As demonstrated in the past and in very recent communcation, PV can (and probably will) reverse the ban immediately. Don't give up the fight. Contact Lily D'Ambrosio 9422 5171 lily.d’ambrosio@parliament.vic.gov.au and Emma Kealy (03) 5382 0097 emma.kealy@parliament.vic.gov.au.

Not sure if its worth calling PV. They have demonstrated to be entirely contradictory if not dishonest. As the last few days have shown you could be told its OK to climb in the SPA's or you could get fined $1600 by some wanna-be cop ranger in a tactical vest. Go to PV's bosses.

dan_b
15-Mar-2019
11:39:09 AM
I share this opinion.

Andersens, for example, is sickening (admittedly mostly post-fire). I'm a little surprised it ever got reopened.

edit: was quoting FatBoy when he said:

"I am utterly convinced that the items of environmental damage (some real and a lot perceived) including:

excessive chalk
bouldering mat vegetation damage
bolting
additional walking paths
litter (specifically dunny paper)
cliff-base erosion

... are the real issues they care about. The first inhabitants argument looks like a PV crutch to achieve these outcomes.

Let's be clear: PV don't want to ban us because they hate climbing as an activity, they want to ban us because they think it's wrecking the place. Any other interpretation is simply playing the victim card. "

Didn't quote for some reason

Superstu
15-Mar-2019
11:43:55 AM
> . This is NOT climbers vs indigenous Australians. PV has tried really hard to make it look like this but it is obviously more than

The Parks dept has a mandate to protect environment and cultural heritage. If they let people wreck cultural heritage sites or damage the environment on their watch they aren’t doing their job. An us-vs-them mentality fails to appreciate this.

One can argue over the methods being used, but the motivation is a response to the impacts climbers have been making. No conspiracy theories needed.


johny
15-Mar-2019
4:45:31 PM
On 15-Mar-2019 Superstu wrote:
>> . This is NOT climbers vs indigenous Australians. PV has tried really
>hard to make it look like this but it is obviously more than
>
>The Parks dept has a mandate to protect environment and cultural heritage.
>If they let people wreck cultural heritage sites or damage the environment
>on their watch they aren’t doing their job. An us-vs-them mentality fails
>to appreciate this.
>
>

So from this I guess you are in favor of the ban?

Yeah sure, PV's job is supposedly to protect parks. But a cop cant shoot a person for speeding, PV can't ban climbing in the entire N Grampians from 1 or 2 individual's actions.

Since PV gives contradictory information and has shown to be hostile with climbers I think going above their head is the only effective action.

Dude they are rocking up with tactical vests on. How could they get more us vs them?
One Day Hero
15-Mar-2019
5:40:43 PM
On 15-Mar-2019 johny wrote:
>Dude they are rocking up with tactical vests on. How could they get more
>us vs them?

Yeah, that made me laugh. To be fair, it looked like one bloke in a tactical vest and a couple of others in windstopper vests. Not sure which I find more offensive. Name one situation where you have a cold torso but warm limbs!
Access T CliffCare
18-Mar-2019
6:48:21 AM
CliffCare and the Grampians Access Working Group (GAWG) have created a petition on Change.org

Please take a moment to sign.

We believe that as a community, armed with the right knowledge and empowered by strong, constructive working relationships, we can all share the Grampians/Gariwerd National Park in a positive and harmonious way.

CliffCare and GAWG acknowledge and respect the connection Traditional Owners have to Gariwerd and that important cultural and environmental issues need to be addressed within the park, however, we believe that these issues can be managed with co-operation, understanding and education.

https://www.change.org/p/stop-climbing-from-being-banned-in-the-grampians?recruiter=346887748&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=share_petition
Access T CliffCare
18-Mar-2019
11:16:27 AM
Grampians Update 18 March 2019 PART 1 -
Posted on March 18, 2019

We have been communicating regularly with PV over the past week and a half to obtain clarification regarding the closures. Further information provided by PV to some climbers have led many to believe that climbing could occur in the wider SPAs outside of the 8 key focus sites, if certain rules were followed but ranger actions on the ground and conflicting information from other PV offices showed this to be otherwise.

We can now provide the most recent email statement provided by Simon Talbot, COO of Parks Victoria. From our understanding, conditions are still as noted in previous statements but we have highlighted one clarification in Simon Talbot’s statement around infringements for climbing in SPAs.

Simon Talbot PV Statement -
The Grampians National Park Management Plan outlines the Special Protected Areas that have been in place since 2003 where rock climbing is prohibited and hiking and picnicking is permitted. The recent maps released also include an additional 29 protected areas making up 1.2 per cent of the National Park. Protected Areas are assigned due to their cultural significance or flora and fauna values.

The increase in activity and changes in climbing techniques have impacted irreplaceable cultural and environmental assets to a level where enforcement is necessary to preserve these special areas. Parks Victoria is currently undertaking enforcement activities to prevent rock climbing at eight key locations where signage is installed. Parks Victoria has a legislative obligation to protect these special values. At all times, we ask for your support in leaving no trace, using clean climbing techniques and encouraging your peers to do the same.

In broader Special Protected Areas, outside those eight key locations, Parks Victoria is sharing the information materials on rock climbing and undertaking enforcement activity relating to other activities not permitted in any National Park including cutting or damaging vegetation (for instance to make or enhance tracks), lighting fires outside of designated fireplaces, depositing litter, interfering with Aboriginal cultural heritage such as rock art or any damage to rock faces such as drilling holes. We are not enforcing no rock climbing activity in broader Special Protected Areas at this stage and will communicate if anything changes.

We acknowledge the physical, social and economic benefits that climbing brings to our communities and understand the rock climbing community cares passionately about the Grampians National Park.

Over the coming months, Parks Victoria will be reviewing the Grampians National Park Management Plan. A Stakeholder Reference Group will be established where Parks Victoria will meet with affected partners, Licenced Tourism Operators, stakeholder groups and local businesses – including the rock climbing community. Special Protection Area boundaries may change.

Simon Talbot
Parks Victoria – COO

***
VCC/CliffCare & working group
Our understanding at this stage is that:

Rangers will issue fines if you climb at the eight key focus sites where signage has been put up

Rangers can inform you that you should not climb in the SPAs outside of the eight focus sites (blue squares on the first map issued by PV) as part of an education process, but will not fine you. You will be fined if you litter, cut, remove or damage vegetation, light fires outside of designated fireplaces, interfere with any cultural heritage or rock art in these areas,deface or drive off track. These rules and penalties are applied across the GNP, not just the SPAs.

Further assessments of other sites within the SPAs will be undertaken. If areas are deemed too sensitive and are to be closed, before this happens there will be ‘education’ and information provided to the community before signage and enforcement occurs.

We are investigating further the reports that signage has occurred in a non key focus site and will keep you up to date.
Some previous messaging also noted that damage to vegetation through the use of drop mats would be an offence. We would suggest that the use of bouldering mats is confined to rocky and non vegetated areas.

The messaging coming from PV has not aligned with information varying between Head Office and local staff members on the ground in the Grampians, and this has made it increasingly difficult to address the issues that we have been informed has led to the bans (i.e., cultural heritage and environmental protection). There have been some positive discussions about moving forward with the Stakeholder Reference Group that PV are initiating, and what the working group would like to achieve from this. The working groups hope is that the Stakeholder reference group is being established so that other sites within the wider SPA areas can be investigated further in collaboration with us. The working group will continue to engage with PV, bringing with it the concerns of the wider climbing community and continue to ensure our involvement in these discussions and the feedback we have provided, is taken on board.

For us, the protection of cultural and environmental values within the park is still key and we don’t want to lose sight of some of the issues that have brought us to this place of change. We have much in the pipeline with regards to education for the climbing community that we will be sharing in the months to come. We hope this will contribute to ensuring sustainable climbing and bouldering in the park. We also continue to work on building relationships with Traditional Owners. We continue to work on understanding the legislative framework that determines the rights and responsibilities of user groups to access the park, both now and into the future.We will continue to do as we are doing now: working towards greater transparency in decision-making processes from land managers, ensuring that decisions are fair and right, reasons for closures are justified, and that the cultural and natural values of that park are respected throughout this process.

Please be assured that we will update you on our progress, and will continue to work toward greater certainty regarding access for climbers in the Grampians. We make a commitment to providing the climbing community with accurate updates, sharing information that we feel is reliable and can be confidently shared with the community. CliffCare and the VCC remain committed to collaboration with all parties and to ensuring that the climbing community’s concerns are represented as we navigate through the challenges resulting from these closures.

https://cliffcare.org.au/2019/03/18/grampians-update-18-march-2019/


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