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Fixed gear guidelines in the Grampians

(removed)

16-May-2018
1:25:36 PM

On 16-May-2018 gfdonc wrote:
>And I note:
>5.5. When a piton is intentionally removed it should be replaced with
>a fixed hanger or ringbolt.
>
>So the Blimp thingy was done according to the guidelines after all. We
>can pack up and go home now.

Proof that this needs a revision

Access T CliffCare

16-May-2018
2:16:17 PM

So to clarify a point I noted in one of my posts, CliffCare/VCC are involved in this.
I have been researching various approaches of the best and most efficient way to present Fixed Protection and Development guidelines to the community for discussion and feedback after the Black Range issues. The guidelines that Kieran has started off on a new thread(after the Blimp one) pretty much align with the guideline discussion that has been on the drawing board. And as you can see, it's complex. I am very thankful and pleased that members of the climbing community are helping to develop this. I think that those who think it's not getting anywhere are maybe, a bit short of patience. It's been 5 days on one internet forum where people are on briefly and can only comment when they have time or headspace. So some comments referencing a number of posts:

As it is such a complex job, working on the Grampians is a good place to start. It is where the bulk of issues are going to come from, (they certainly are at the moment) for a variety of reasons which you all know. This will then make it much easier to put together an overall one that may have specifics for certain parks.

I think eventually the scope should cover below the 500m. I understand and agree with the remote cliffs point but my conversations with land managers include more than that.

With the Grampians, I agree it needs to be on a cliff to cliff basis. This will also make it easier to then work on the issue of development in new areas. Kind of like a checklist to run through if you find a new cliff. One of the big concerns is not just the use of fixed protection but alongside that the amount of new areas that are being discovered and developed. This then brings in a location aspect rather a cliff. Maybe this is something that will be informed by areas that might already be deemed as sensitive by PV and TO. See next point.

The Management plan of the Grampians is old and is due to be revisited. Not sure when exactly but it is being talked about. When it was written, climbing as an activity wasn't anywhere near as large as it is now. And therefore the plan is not really sensitive to climbers as a user group. Having said that, when it comes down to it, it is what many in PV will reference when there is an issue obviously. The overlays are interesting as there are currently a lot of developed cliffs in the special protection zones. You are talking parts of the Vic Range here. As it stands, supposedly no recreational pursuits are supposed to happen in these areas. It does need to be taken into account but I also think that this conversation and the guidelines will help inform the newer Management Plan of the park. Maybe there are some areas that will be deemed unnacceptable whereas others can be negotiated.

I like the three tier system and would work in an overall guidelines.

Kieran's draft parameters for each cliff in the Grampians gives people the opportunity to look at the current situation with that particular cliff and provide feedback relevant to it rather than trying to apply the bigger picture to something that might have some specific requirements.

A general fixed protection and development guideline should be in place and I will work with the community on this. And also develop something akin to a Memorandum of Understanding with Land managers and Traditional Owners.

VCC Bolt Policy. There is currently a VCC Bolt Policy people can access. This is in the process of being revisited and updated.

As Kieran noted this needs to go to a broader audience.I am keen and happy to meet in person to thrash out some kind of document which I can use reference in my discussions with PV and also start putting out to the community via all my usual networks be it social media, climbing media, newsletters and contact list. I will drop a couple of you emails or messages. Anyone else who is keen to be involved in this past this forum, please drop me a line cliffcare@vicclimb.org.au

Kieran and others, would you be happy if I promote the conversation on this site for the immediate time frame to get more feedback in order to develop the draft? Or preference to develop a draft travelling along at this pace on this site and then put it elsewhere?

Great work people!

(removed)

16-May-2018
2:29:31 PM

On 16-May-2018 Access T CliffCare wrote:

>I like the three tier system and would work in an overall guidelines.
Yay ! (Although I suspect a 4th tier - "no climbing due to cultural reasons" also exists)

>Kieran and others, would you be happy if I promote the conversation on
>this site for the immediate time frame to get more feedback in order to
>develop the draft?
Yup. I'd love to hear a few more people's voices on this one.

One Day Hero

16-May-2018
3:21:37 PM

On 16-May-2018 bigchris wrote:
>Many people have boycotted this website because of threads like this.
>I, on the other hand, am finding it entertaining to watch everyone try
>and yell over the top of each other via a keyboard.

You go to work, come home, there are 10 posts with 30 points which need to be addressed, but the convo has moved on and bombing everyone with a wall of text is silly. What alternative do you suggest?

One Day Hero

16-May-2018
3:31:01 PM

On 16-May-2018 kieranl wrote:
>The point of the thread isn't to solve the issue. The point is to start
>a conversation with the people and trolls who still look at this site about
>how we can manage crag development in the Grampians.

You still haven't bothered to reply, so I'll take another guess. You've come up with the arbitrary altitude line in hopes of reaching a compromise with sport bolters? You'd throw a bunch of good areas to the dogs in the hope that they will respect a voluntary no-bolting policy at other areas?

I don't agree at all with the trad crag/sport crag split. Don't try to find solutions at the extremes. If there is sensibly bolted excellent mixed route, pulling the bolts out is dumb.

One Day Hero

16-May-2018
3:38:47 PM

On 16-May-2018 Wendy wrote:
>I agree, it would be dumb.

Cool, so two people who still have function brains, and aren't slaves to an obsessive new-routing disorder agree that Golden Fleece wall is full. Maybe we can build on this?
Note that I'm not suggesting a "no bolting ever ever" rule. Instead, it's saying "hey, this isn't terra nullius. A lot of people have looked at this and elected not to bolt. Please consult publicly before you place bolts here."

>So you have picked a 50 m section of cliff out of how many many kms of
>cliff around here?

Did I stutter? I thought I said start with the easy ones. Golden Fleece wall was the first example which popped into my head. I would also suggest New Image Wall, Uncle Charlie, and Yesterday Gully......although Gareth and Doug might disagree given their recent pieces of shi.....I mean classic bolted link-ups.

One Day Hero

16-May-2018
3:53:06 PM

2. (following on from 1., which was a page ago)

Get case officers for problem compulsive bolters. Is everyone else too polite to say that Joe Goding is fuching menace who's going to get bolting and/or climbing banned for a bunch of garbage routes which are so worthless it beggars belief?

I'm not talking about some stranger keeping a file on him. Seriously, if you know Joe and you care at all about wild places and continued climbing access, maybe try to start a conversation, get advanced notice of what the next 'mega sport crag' is and try to moderate his behaviour?

chalkischeap

16-May-2018
5:10:37 PM

Calm down ODH. There are hundreds of sport climbs in the Grampians. You can't go back to 1984. There's a sport climbing guidebook y'know.

One Day Hero

16-May-2018
8:18:17 PM

On 16-May-2018 chalkischeap wrote:
> There's a sport climbing guidebook y'know

Yeah, I browsed it once. Half the good climbs in that book aren't sport routes, y'know

Wendy

17-May-2018
7:33:06 AM

On 16-May-2018 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 16-May-2018 Wendy wrote:
>>I agree, it would be dumb.
>
>Cool, so two people who still have function brains, and aren't slaves
>to an obsessive new-routing disorder agree that Golden Fleece wall is full.
>Maybe we can build on this?

did you just say i don't have an obssessive routing disorder?

>Note that I'm not suggesting a "no bolting ever ever" rule. Instead, it's
>saying "hey, this isn't terra nullius. A lot of people have looked at this
>and elected not to bolt. Please consult publicly before you place bolts
>here."
>
>
>>So you have picked a 50 m section of cliff out of how many many kms of
>>cliff around here?
>
>Did I stutter? I thought I said start with the easy ones. Golden Fleece
>wall was the first example which popped into my head. I would also suggest
>New Image Wall, Uncle Charlie, and Yesterday Gully......although Gareth
>and Doug might disagree given their recent pieces of shi.....I mean classic
>bolted link-ups.

I think the bolted ones in those spots might be gareth's. Douglas's world famous link up with less than a body length of new climbing on NI wall is all trad.

I think you might need to start your own thread about new development guidelines at araps though, as this is meant to be about the grampians. i have this theory that you could just summarise your position with "every major area at araps covered by the select guide" and save yourself listing them individually, which seems a tedious enough job, and it's way less work than the individual crag approach to the grampians. I have a bunch of obscure cliffs in mind for when i can climb again, so you can be reassured they are not squished into full crags.


nmonteith

17-May-2018
8:03:53 AM

Before I forget - let's include Red Cave in the no-bolt crag list please.

kieranl

17-May-2018
1:24:04 PM

On 16-May-2018 nmonteith wrote:

>Fortress - I don't have my guides with me - but isn't there some bolts
>on the hard Carrigan/Shepherd wall routes left of Passport?
>
No. All trad. There may be a fixed sling.

kieranl

17-May-2018
1:31:26 PM

On 16-May-2018 Access T CliffCare wrote:

>
>Kieran and others, would you be happy if I promote the conversation on
>this site for the immediate time frame to get more feedback in order to
>develop the draft?

Fine with me, Tracey.

dalai

17-May-2018
2:16:52 PM

On 17-May-2018 kieranl wrote:
>On 16-May-2018 Access T CliffCare wrote:
>
>>
>>Kieran and others, would you be happy if I promote the conversation on
>>this site for the immediate time frame to get more feedback in order
>to
>>develop the draft?
>
>Fine with me, Tracey.

That would be great Tracey. Love your work by the way!

armstp

17-May-2018
3:56:47 PM

The tier system sounds like a workable idea. Particularly as it can be fairly easily communicated and used. On thecrag site it would be an easy matter to identify each Grampians cliff in the intro to the cliff by its tier. It could also be used in guidebooks. Have the definition in the guidebook intro and then have each cliff allotted a tier.

Another proviso in the general tier definition could be along the lines that no matter how the cliff is rated overall each new route should be assessed as to whether it can be climbed readily and safely in a ‘lower’ tier fashion [assuming trad is tier 1]. This is just to make clear that an overall cliff rating of tier 3 [sport] is not a license to bolt an easily trad protectable climb in the area.

A fourth tier could just be Climbing is illegal in this area [for any of a number of reasons, cultural, environmental, private property etc].

Tied in with a set of new routing principles such as Wendy suggested this should be a good input to Tracey’s suggested draft.

18-May-2018
2:09:19 AM

It would be a good idea to look into the ways other areas have regulated bolting. Some light reading for the very bored...

UIAA (Europe)

http://www.theuiaa.org/documents/declarations/13-01-2014-revision-The-Preservation-of-Natural-Rock-for-Adventure-Climbing.pdf

http://www.theuiaa.org/documents/declarations/11.3._To_bolt_or_not_to_be.pdf

The US Park Service
Section 7.2
http://www.nps.gov/policy/dorders/do_41.pdf

The lack of policy by the US Forest Service
http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf01232826/pdf01232826pt02.pdf

US Bureau of Land Managment
http://www.blm.gov/policy/im-2007-084

A very ambiguous and soft statement from NZ
http://alpineclub.org.nz/parkside/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NZAC-3.-Bolting-Standards_Dec-2017.pdf

An unofficial statement by the Norwegians based on ethics
http://www.planetmountain.com/en/news/alpinism/the-norwegian-alpine-club-and-the-ethics-for-climbing-in-norway.html

Individual Policies from US parks or forests
http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/bolting.htm

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd510683.pdf

I hope you didn't have any other plans for your day...


IdratherbeclimbingM9

18-May-2018
12:09:49 PM

On 18-May-2018 Me wrote:
~ > Links to some great background information for con_text* (*damn our hack-filters!)

Thank you for posting them.

I found the Norwegian policy summed it up for me and the response to it by an 'offender' was particularly salient...
>

Regarding the climbing ethics, I feel everybody is responsible for them, but at the end of the day one must also adhere to them and not only talk or write about them. Ethics are not only for others but mainly for ourselves!

I was already aware of the Yosemite ethic of hand drilled bolting only which sic;
>

inherently limits the number of those bolts by requiring that they be hand drilled.

and find this a workable though intriguing solution, as it effectively puts the brakes on rampant development, though conjours up quality control issues...

Poppy28

18-May-2018
1:05:21 PM

I think the development and -promotion- of guidelines for the grampians is a pretty good idea. It may not solve all the problems but clearly shows the community expectations of climbers.
It sounds as if this is a good time to develop in combination with VCCs revision of their bolting policy and PVs revision of land management.

It'd be great to share this conversation to a couple of groups on Facebook as well to broaden the audience. Making it known to as many climbers as possible will be important, and The Crag will be a useful tool for this.

I've had conversations before about the best platform to deliver information for Victorian climbers. Between Chockstone, PV, Clifffcare, VCC, Facebook, local gyms and The Crag, it's hard to keep up with important information.
Delivering the information is as much of a challenge as creating it.

Harvey


bigchris

18-May-2018
2:30:23 PM

>I was already aware of the Yosemite ethic of hand drilled bolting only
>which sic;
>>

inherently limits the number of those bolts by requiring
>that they be hand drilled.

>and find this a workable though intriguing solution, as it effectively
>puts the brakes on rampant development, though conjours up quality control
>issues...

I saw multiple famous climbers in Yosemite in Sept with drills, so while it might be the rule it definitely doesn't get followed.

Access T CliffCare

19-May-2018
1:43:37 PM

I have shared an announcement to a number of networks - usual that I share to. Facebook various pages plus CliffCare, CliffCare website, contacted gyms, theCrag, media. I will be sending some info to a dedicated contact list as well over the next couple of days.

It isn't going to be a perfect system. As aren't all the systems in place in other countries when it comes to climbing. If it was it would mean that everyone would be happy ;-) But you can bet that it will have helped continued access in many areas.

Cheers!

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