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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 3 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60
Author
Topping out vs lowering off (climbs & ethics?)

HEX
20/08/2004
2:58:34 PM

>'Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground'

>Its all a game (unless your a wascally wabbit?)

" Ding !! Ding !! --- Round 2, Kent !! "...



HEX
20/08/2004
3:30:43 PM
>Wiggling crap into the cliff is...very much part of victorian climbing...

Ahh- get readdy !
Ta wiggle !!
Wiggle ya cams an' wiggle ya nuts !!! ...
Ahh- get readdy !
Ta wiggle !!
Wiggle along with meeeeeeeee!!!

Luv HEX ( in low-cut skivvy )...

IdratherbeclimbingM9
Online Now
20/08/2004
4:47:06 PM
On 20/08/2004 nmonteith wrote (reply to Ed Frilly):
>So your thought is... A better tick for Serpintine is to aid, jumar and
>dog your way on second up both pitches rather than to cleanly free lead
>the 45m 29 crux pitch? Bizarre!
Some might call this Aid climbing (of sorts)!; and they would do it for participating in the 'magic of place' sake, on the basis that they could not do it any other (acceptable) way.
In fact there is / are niche mob/s out there who specialise in SRT (single rope technique), and who don't necessarily aspire to free-climb even humble grades (letalone the mighty Serpentine) ..., yet who still like 'going places'.
No disrespect intended; but wasn't the mob who lost a participant (abseiling in this area??)* an example of this?
-------------------------
* Retro edit: I may well have my memory wires crossed up on this point, but such groups exist ...
_______________

I would not go so far as to call it a
>better tick
though.

climbau
20/08/2004
10:33:25 PM
I must admit that i am quite amused by the level of emotion shown by certain members. As a climber who has solely Bouldered/Sport/Trad climbed at times over the last decade I couldn't find anything offensive about the original title.
But to add my opinion; I believe that if the first ascensionist/s took the climb all the way to the top, then lowering off below the top is a variant. If you want to claim an ascent of that particular climb, but lowered off below the top, then you simply say what you did. If you want to spray and stroke your own ego, then you leave out the part about lowering off and/or deny this if asked. Also, if you wanna just do certain pitches of a multi-pitch, then that's cool also. As long as you don't lie about what you have done. Just get out there and find someone to climb with who has the same ethics as you, don't lie about it, and enjoy what you do.
Peace be with you all!

climbau
20/08/2004
10:39:01 PM
By the way,
A team of climbers can make an ascent of a multi-pitch and claim it as a team. That is " A5 and I did Maharajah the other day" as opposed to " I did Maharajah the other day". It is quite simple to me!
Also, I think you will find that when you talk to people about climbs they have done statements like "Bloody 'ell, I'm glad Gonad-Man led pitch 2, I was absolutely packin' me dacks just on second!" are quite common.
Summs it up me thinks?

climbau
20/08/2004
10:43:51 PM
On 20/08/2004 climbau wrote:
> As a climber who has solely Bouldered/Sport/Trad climbed at times
>over the last decade I couldn't find anything offensive about the original
>title.
to rebuff any forth-coming remarks re my earlier statement, I don't think a decade of climbing is an extrordinary thing that makes me god-like or special [I was both before I started climbing:)!]
dilbster
26/08/2004
9:40:50 PM
Lower offs are a very practical solution to the environmental problem that is created by climbers at the top of cliffs. In places like Nowra they make sense as the top of the cliff is ussually covered in vegetation which would be destroyed by climbers topping out.

In the UK i saw a great many crags with top outs much the worse for wear due to their stubborn refusal for lower offs. I have even finished a few climbs in peoples backyards.

In the blue mountains, both the west face of the three sisters and the face of mount banks have been closed at least partially due to corrosion at the top of cliff faces. Do not encourage closures of more crags due to corrosion.

Lets not let our stubborness destroy the environment we enjoy just because of some egotistic ideal!.

BoaredOfTheRings
27/08/2004
12:39:23 AM
In a word "BOLLOCKS".

What about all the people bashing their way to the top to set up a top rope of the lower off.
mikl law
27/08/2004
1:56:20 AM
Toproping is evil and should be stopped. It makes people think they are climbing. And setting up anchors is generally much more dangereous than just leading the damn thing.

rodw
27/08/2004
9:05:32 AM
Top roping etc happens a lot less than people leading a climb and topping out. the word is "lessen" impact not stop it completely.

oweng
27/08/2004
12:18:50 PM
Since I started doing a few sports routes, ive noticed that nothing is more irritating than a sport route without a lower-off. Whats the point of making a sports route, if you have to lug your rack up the thing so you can set up an anchor at the top? (Unless the climbs are on a sea-cliff where you have to rap in from the top anyway...)

I think trad climbs should not generally have lower-offs, unless the people have spoken by leaving a mass of unsightly fixed tatt to ab off and avoid a chossy last pitch etc. In this case a lower-off is a great idea!
BoaredOfTheRings
27/08/2004
1:51:24 PM
On 27/08/2004 mikl law wrote:
>Toproping is evil and should be stopped.

Your logic is confusing?? Toproping is evil but retro-bolting and chipping are accepted? Luckly there are few who would agree with you.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
Online Now
27/08/2004
4:28:40 PM
Hex said (on the wrong the thread) 27/08/04:
>Well, Oweng, and assorted grass-hoppers --- the first thing you need to understand about >sport-climbs with lower-offs is that the establishment of far-too many of these abomb-in->ations, is that they actually constitute the act of PRO-ACTIVE retro-bolting --- yes , that's >right !
>.You see, a ' sport-climb' isn't allowed to involve any cerebral activity that is related to such >basic human functions such as physical-self-preservation or exploring the inter-face >between organism and the INORGANIC...
>So, what then tends to happen , is that more pro-active-retro-bolts are added initially, >BEFORE they can be categorised as 'retro-bolts' --- savvy ? ; Further-more, the lower-off >bolts are more-often-than-not , quite unnecessary additions to the immediate climbing >environment , which are designed not really for ' convienience ' , but to add some >sweet .icing to the consumer-climb cake , thus deflecting attention away from the very-real >devious agenda of dumbing/numbing repeat ascencionists from realising that yet another >fantastic climbing-challenge has quietly been stolen from the broader-climbing-community >by the insidious/out-rageous act of pro-active-retro-bolting --- CAN'T YOU SEE THAT ?!! --- >what is the matter with you people ?!!!!

oweng 27/08/2004 2:02:01 PM said (again on the wrong thread)
>Uoh, im under the gun....
>If im doing a modern sports climb, it seems to have a lot of big fat ubolts, or lots of big shiny >fixed hangers. On the black dolerite rock down here in Tassie, and with the current close >spacing that is the fashion of the day, these rows of bolts can look unbeleivably ugly and >obtrusive. Given this, I cant see that adding a lower-off adds greatly to this visual impact. I >also think that if your going to the effort of putting up a sport route, you might as well make >it safe. You could argue that deliberatly ommiting a bolt on a run-out but easier section, is >the pro-active chopping of a retro-bolted run-out. But then where would you be? Potentially >stuck with a headache me thinks.
>So Hex, im stuck in a conundrum. I hate the appearance of a wall bristling with sports >routes, but I like climbing those routes. If im going to the 'dark side' and climbign sport >routes, its all about selfishness. I want a quick McDonalds like fix (complete with lower-offs), >that will be imediatly satisfying, but ultimatly (for me) less memorable than a more >commiting 'trad' climb.

I reckon climbs end at the top;
>what is the matter with you people ?!!!!

>I want a quick McDonalds like fix (complete with lower-offs),
... Then go to a gym !!!

>You could argue that deliberatly ommiting a bolt on a run-out but easier section, is >the pro->active chopping of a retro-bolted run-out. But then where would you be?
Sorry, but its called 'trad' these days.



climbau
27/08/2004
7:01:19 PM
On 27/08/2004 oweng wrote:
>Since I started doing a few sports routes, ive noticed that nothing is
>more irritating than a sport route without a lower-off.
If you can't down climb it then you shouldn't be on the climb.

>Whats the point
>of making a sports route, if you have to lug your rack up the thing so
>you can set up an anchor at the top? (Unless the climbs are on a sea-cliff
>where you have to rap in from the top anyway...)
Because that way sport climbers become real climbers.

mousey
27/08/2004
8:48:00 PM
>If you can't down climb it then you shouldn't be on the climb
half the point of sport climbing is to go for those moves that you dont think you can UPclimb, let alone downclimb

>because that way sport climbers become real climbers.
i thought we established that real climbers only solo? theres water doewn there, just jump!!


climbau
27/08/2004
9:47:36 PM
On 27/08/2004 Mighty Mouse wrote:
> theres water doewn
>there, just jump!!
>
>
I heard a fella say the same thing at the top of "The Gap"
dilbster
7/09/2004
10:59:54 PM
I must be on the wrong forum, this seems now to be about trad versus sport?

Theres plenty out there for all of us.

Any way regarding top roping of lower offs, this is not a problem if you put the lower offs at least a metre below the top. Then they cant reach it from above.

a number of the sandstone climbs in the blueys or sydney have no trees or any form of natural pro at the top and therefore it is a choice of anchors at the top or lower offs.

Lower offs, like sport climbs, should not be put anywhere where a viable natural protection solution exists.




IdratherbeclimbingM9
Online Now
8/09/2004
10:47:12 AM
On 7/09/2004 dilbster wrote:
>I must be on the wrong forum, this seems now to be about trad versus sport?
It's not supposed to be, and you are right about
>Theres plenty out there for all of us.
... even for aid climbers ! (The issue is still convoluted though, ... more on this later*).

>a number of the sandstone climbs in the blueys or sydney have no trees
>or any form of natural pro at the top and therefore it is a choice of anchors
>at the top or lower offs.
Agreed.

>Lower offs, like sport climbs, should not be put anywhere where a viable
>natural protection solution exists.
I would not encourage using trees for lower-offs in areas that receive frequent use.

In my early days at Bungonia I noticed this practice used off trees above popular caves. When I returned years later, I noticed with dismay that ALL of the aforementioned trees were dead due to being effectively ringbarked by ropes, and I lament this greatly.

In the Bluies at popular places like Mt York, I have noticed that certain trees are suffering simply from the repeated use of them as belay anchors for leaders who have topped out and then belay their seconds, (not necessarily directly off the tree).
The climbers may well walk off at that point without having to drag a rope down, so the damage isn't as accelerated, but it is still happening incrementally with the simple slinging of those trees, by the traffic compaction of soil near their roots.

*Oweng summed the dilema up nicely in an earlier post when he referred to the 'conundrum' of liking convenience climbs while hating their appearance, but still acknowledging them as "less memorable than more commiting 'trad' climb" (sic).

He (like me), is viewing this from a predominantly trad perspective. Having been around long enough now; I now see that even 'trad' has had a negative effect on certain areas.

WM' s solution is to only climb the quality pitches, and definitely leave the manky topouts to be reclaimed by nature. This makes sense to me and might one day be the only alternative (enforced by beauracracy), rather than a 'climbers choice' initiative as it is at present.

I guess the answer is in recognising early enough for enviro reasons or otherwise, which climbs need formal lower-offs and by concencus calling the climb finished even if it does not proceed all the way to the ultimate top.

For me however, I still generally regard climbs of short length on cliffs of obvious greater length, as 'unfinished'. If I lower off one of these short climbs (no matter in which style I got to the top of it, or whether or not it has a formal loweroff point), then I consider myself to have wimped out on the remainder !

Practical issues aside; it is good that we still have the prerogative of allowing 'each to their own' (kcwat13) at this stage, because I suspect that like the trees at Bungonia .... our time is limited in the future ...

IdratherbeclimbingM9
Online Now
15/08/2005
3:33:54 PM
... bump ...

Another blast from the past, but perhaps also a Thread sounding a little disjointed since certain C members either deleted their posts or requested same (including their user id's).
... Sad to see you go Edward Frillypants ... hope you still lurk sometimes!
(Also good to read some early Hex-Troll posts during his/her present absence ...)

WM and others in this thread alluded to environmental reasons for having lower offs instead of topping out.

Although never against valid enviro reasons for this action, I have interestingly enough (as history turns full circle), found myself part of negotiations (within a broader group context) involving access to a climbing area that has one of the critical issues identified being the fragile habitat of rare plant species (that have been found) in the vicinity of topouts to known climbs.

It appears that one of the solutions to retaining access to the cliffs involved will be having lower-offs installed, along with re-routing access tracks, education programmes etc.

Another thing I found interesting was the fact that one of the Authorities involved had done research on Chockstone and alluded during our site visit discussion to pictures (posted by WM on another thread) of possible chalk damage to the environment.

It is good that discussion is enlightened, and I am heartened that as climbers we can be taken seriously by the Authorities involved. I have found the process to be educational for me personally and continue to look forward to putting something back into this game we call climbing.

Although in the past I considered myself fairly easy going regarding tolerating other climbers anarchistic behaviour, I can see myself changing in the near future if it means retaining access to sensitive areas. This as a result of knowing how easily what we presently take for granted, can be lost; ... without strong peer pressure being applied to maverick elements within our chosen sport.
Jimminy clip it !!
22/08/2007
2:11:27 PM
>For me however, I still generally regard climbs of short length on cliffs of obvious >greater length, as 'unfinished'. If I lower off one of these short climbs (no matter in >which style I got to the top of it, or whether or not it has a formal loweroff point), then I >consider myself to have wimped out on the remainder !


OK !!! So ura WIMP !!!! GET OVER IT !!!!!








Ralph


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There are 60 messages in this topic.

 

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