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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 2 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60
Author
Topping out vs lowering off (climbs & ethics?)

IdratherbeclimbingM9
19/08/2004
3:18:43 PM
On 19/08/2004 dalai wrote:
>Sorry A5, but starting a new topic with the title "Topping out vs lowering
>off (wimpy climber ethic?)" is quite condescending to many climbers and
>you must have realized that it would garner equally aggresive replies.

Hey ALL, I'm sorry.
I actually didn't realise (or intend) that the title be 'condescending' (sic), and have changed it. Even before I read this post of Dalais. (Please re-read my earlier post # 20 as now edited).
Am thick today; ... need another coffee ...

>I am so sick of this debate/arguement/chest beating - sport vs trad vs
>bouldering vs mountaineering...
I agree and had/have no intention of promoting same.

>Just because you may not understand the attraction to a facet of the sport
>you have not experienced , doesn't make it of lesser value.
Agree 100%, and in fact generally try to improve my understanding of the facets I am not familiar with.

Sheesh; if I ever want to stir the bull then I now know where the button is!!

Just say OK, OK?

HEX
19/08/2004
3:22:40 PM
A5 --- Relax a bit,dude--- we all luv ta learn---clearly a case of ' its not what you ask--- it's the way that you ask it'... ; retreating into coffee will not help you--- If you're addax/man enuf then have a good read of the Carrigan quote and give it one of your thoughtful replys--- the sooner you drag your sinking-brain out of the thick,sticky mud at the edge of that Savannan watering-hole...

WM---Yes that's right --- as orchids/pansy as it might seem/sound --- lowering/abseiling-off, now, has as much to do with crag-conservation as much as it has to providing A5 with an opportunity to have lions leaping /shot-gun pellets all over his addax-y car-kiss...

IdratherbeclimbingM9
19/08/2004
3:38:09 PM
On 19/08/2004 WM wrote:
>A5 said:
>> present finish in the 'cave'/solution hole
>for the record thats the 4th belay.
>Pitch 5, despite being easier, is
>fantastic airy climbing and thus the hole is not the "logical conclusion".
Fair enough, I stand corrected. Just relying on my dimming memory of watching another party on it whilst I was on the opposite wall.

>OTOH above the 5th anchor is pure mank - so it's a very finished classic IMO!
I must like choss. It looks OK , though vegetated, to me (from the opposite wall).

The short climb I put up to the right of Big Red Supergiants topout, by traversing in onto the headwall then going directly up to about 10m right of cooee point is extreme choss all the way, and thats what I liked about it; solving the problematic climbing, along with the exposure ...

>to split a hair....its not just a sport climbers mentality: 'everyone'
>raps off below the top of trad routes,
Everyone?
I am in a minor minority then / mix in very small circles?
>eg eternity
It does actually have an end pitch!

>I think its great that the moss & lichen [(edit) orchids etc] can reclaim the top of these routes.
I see that the environment can win from that, and indeed there are many places where this is applicable.
As a generalisation though if the line obviously continued on, then I (for one), would pursue it, unless an environmental reason dictated otherwise.

HEX
19/08/2004
3:48:36 PM
The addax has stagger-ed clear of the muddy-watering-hole, but the vultures are circling and the hyienas are grinning ...

IdratherbeclimbingM9
19/08/2004
3:55:18 PM
On 19/08/2004 HEX wrote:
>muddy-watering-hole,
Most run-out, ... almost A4+ territory, but not quite as bad as;
>ex -trick- ating (myself) from the gnarly crevasse that Damo found hissself in ta udder day.

> --- now watch out for that boulder over there --- t
wascally wabbits
shouldn't that read 'now watch out for that boulderER over there' !

------------------------------
>Topping out vs lowering off (wimpy climber ethic?)
Why is it that (only) the sport climbers took this personally? When I 'penned' that title what I had in my mind was ANY climbers (including myself) not finishing routes as 'set'.

Kind of reminds me of a joke along the lines of;
Man says to a mate at a crowded venue, "The trouble with women is they take remarks personally"
... and almost instantly several women within earshot chorused "Well I don't" !

(Apologies to any women out there) :)


HEX
19/08/2004
4:01:08 PM
It's OK grass-hopper,' The HEX ' will guide you to safety --- now watch out for that boulder over there --- there's a pygmy-wabbit armed with a poison-dart-blow-tube...

----------------------------------
Nevermind 'the boulderERs'--- they're just the tsetse flies feasting on the addax droppings, you're looking at ---and didn't you drop a lot today !!!

Now go and have a long , soothing soak in the cauldron---it's VERY warm at the moment ---Damey & Neil-o are waiting for you...

IdratherbeclimbingM9
20/08/2004
8:43:55 AM
Hex-T
>over his addax-y car-kiss
At the risk of becoming a road-kill item again, I would like to continue exploring in this thread ...

I am still somewhat stunned by the concept of people only doing certain pitches of climbs, instead of doing them whole, given the time, effort, etc to access the climb ...

If you back off a climb due to (whatever reason) = unable to complete it, then thats one thing; but to deliberately set out from home base, travel etc to do certain pitches while avoiding others is another thing altogether. [(IMO :) ]

On 19/08/2004 nmonteith wrote:
>The most obvious example is Serpetine @ Taipan. Most climbers don't lead
>the first nasty grade 24 pitch. They convince one person to lead it - fix
>a rope - then the hoards jug up to the belay so they can tick the second
>crux pitch.
I assume from your example that the 1st pitch either saps their endurance to complete the second pitch, or the 1st pitch is possibly dangerous/involves more risk. Either way, if 'most' avoid it enroute to managing to 'tick' the 2nd; Do they still claim an ascent?


nmonteith
20/08/2004
9:06:22 AM
On 20/08/2004 A5iswhereitsat wrote:

>I assume from your example that the 1st pitch either saps their endurance
>to complete the second pitch, or the 1st pitch is possibly dangerous/involves
>more risk.

It is known as a slopy and scary pitch - which is not very classic. People want to do the 'best line in Australia' (the second pitch). It actually happens a lot on Taipan Wall with lots of people only doing the first pitches on routes such as Seventh Bannana, Sirroco, Seventh Pillar LHV, World Party & Mr Joshua. One of the reasons may be beacuse it takes people a considerable amount of pump effort to do these first pitches - with many many redpoint attempts in a day. Once the tick has been made the chance of getting up the second pitch is almost nil. Another crux is trying to convince someone to belay you whilst working the second/third pitch! I couldn't convince anyone to belay me on pitch 2/3 of world party so i ended up getting them to belay me from the ground instead - which gave me huge amounts of rope drag/wieght. Not very fun!
WM
20/08/2004
10:38:39 AM
>I am still somewhat stunned by the concept of people only doing certain
>pitches of climbs, instead of doing them whole, given the time, effort,
>etc to access the climb ...

I put in the time/effort/access in order to do some GOOD climbing - if the rest is mank (or out of my league like all the taipan 2nd pitches) then its plain common sense to get the hell outta there and go do something else good! Some of my best climbing achievements fall in this category - whats so hard about respecting any achievement for what it is?

seems crazy to get all hung up about "you didn't do the 2nd pitch so it doesn't count"

kcwat13
20/08/2004
11:21:19 AM
And I think that basically sums it up...."Each to their own"

dalai
20/08/2004
11:22:03 AM
On 20/08/2004 Edward Frillypants wrote:
>Unless we ('cos trad climbing means
>you're a team) did the first pitch then as far as I'm concerned we wouldn't
>have done it. To me, it would be a bit like cutting a corner or cheating.
>
So as a team you send the other person to lead the first death pitch and if they survive and tow you up, you then get to lead the classic pitch ;)

This brings up another topic - do you claim the ascent if you don't lead every pitch?

nmonteith
20/08/2004
11:25:52 AM
how about this one...

can you claim a route if you seconded half of the climb? Modern ethics say you must lead every pitch. Classic example is the first free ascent of Salathe Wall @ Yosemite by Todd Skinner/Paul Piana (i think). They worked as a team with each of them focused on free climbing seperate sections of the climb - they led the entire route free - but each of them didn't lead all the pitches. The Huber Bros (i think) came over and both of them freed every pitch - and they claimed the first free ascent!

So how many climbs have you old baddie traddies not actually done as you seconded some of the pitches?? ;-)

nmonteith
20/08/2004
11:26:55 AM
Holy crap dalai - we posted at exactly the same time with the same thought. Great minds think a-like!
dalai
20/08/2004
11:28:22 AM
Yes indeed ;-)

nmonteith
20/08/2004
12:02:32 PM
So your thought is... A better tick for Serpintine is to aid, jumar and dog your way on second up both pitches rather than to cleanly free lead the 45m 29 crux pitch? Bizarre!

nmonteith
20/08/2004
12:13:40 PM
no! - no modern climber would even consider that you had "ticked" Serpentine by seconding the crux pitch...

nmonteith
20/08/2004
12:16:29 PM
I admit this whole topic is a very grey area! You can pick apart every argumenet, for or against, quite easily...

nmonteith
20/08/2004
12:27:04 PM
On 20/08/2004 Edward Frillypants wrote:
>But your 'modern' climber HAS ticked Serpentine if they avoid the first
>pitch as per your earlier comments below???
>
>> Most climbers don't lead the first nasty grade 24 pitch. They convince
>one person to lead it - fix a rope - then the hoards jug up to the belay
>so they can tick the second crux pitch.
>

I didn't actually agree with that statement - i just pointed out that that is what most new-age climbers think. Persanally i think you have to lead both pitches to claim the tick - or clearly state you only did pitch 2.

HEX
20/08/2004
12:45:59 PM
>Hmmm... I like this 'individual' approach to climbing...Me, me, me, me, me!

Aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh --- the beautiful politics of bouldering ...bringiton !!!

Luv HEX,Tel, Dalai,etc,etc,etc...

IdratherbeclimbingM9
20/08/2004
2:42:45 PM
'Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground'.

kcwat13
> that basically sums it up...."Each to their own"
Welcome to the forum kcwat13
You are right, & this is the assumed starting point for all of us (IMO).
(Hope you can navigate the cauldron slops as they occur. Just don’t mention $b0^# climbing too loud, unless you have a hide like an addax)!

WM
>Some of my best climbing achievements fall in this category - whats so hard about respecting any achievement for what it is?
>seems crazy to get all hung up about "you didn't do the 2nd pitch so it doesn't count"
No-one is hung up (IMO) and we respect your practicality / time-effort management :)


Edward Frillypants
>spray about sport climbing from which I am highly disappointed you have backpedalled : )
>First rule of climbing: everyone else can gaaan git f@cked, but be true to yourself : )
I think I have been consistent, (hence my earlier justification posts).
Agree; with being true to self! This is really the most important rule of the game of climbing.
>Backpedalled?
=> only true if I had set out to stir them up (which I didn’t), so I see it as keeping the peace so as to better understand. The continuing thread validates this?
(Now if I really wanted to set them off I’d start with … and then … ,& I would be unlikely to back down).
Am also pleased to know you are part of the GNARL tribe. There are few left I hear, vide the ‘afterall it is the internet’ medium. [Good medium for INTER(net)ACTION that …]

Dalai
>This brings up another topic - do you claim the ascent if you don't lead every pitch?
Yes! … as Ed said, in the ‘team’ context.
It is the historical precedent re: ‘I have done that route’, which is different to saying I have ‘led’ that route (implying every pitch).

Nmonteith
>can you claim a route if you seconded half of the climb? Modern ethics say you must lead every pitch
USA Free Big Walls delineation perhaps, but here? I would not agree that its an Australia-wide accepted stance.

>So how many climbs have you old baddie traddies not actually done as you seconded some of the pitches?? ;-)
See above response to Dalai, otherwise the answer by your yardstick is heaps!!
When I have enjoyed a multipitch route I have often returned and led the pitches I seconded on originally, … so for me I can say I have led it, but over the course of two ascents.

>no modern climber would even consider that you had "ticked" Serpentine by seconding the crux pitch...
Very interesting concept!

Edward Frillypants
>Hmmm... I don't know if I like this 'individual' approach to climbing? I must have lead all or the crux pitches. Me, me, me, me, me! Thought it was more of a partnership?
Agree wholeheartedly!
Its all a game (unless your a wascally wabbit?): ... (In which case it appears to be a serious game)!

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There are 60 messages in this topic.

 

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