General Climbing Discussion

Author	Manufacturing
dalai 12-Aug-2004 4:18:07 PM	On 12/08/2004 nmonteith wrote: > >The chipping i saw in the USA was very current (in 1999). I actually stumbled >upon a WIP crag at Jacks Canyon when I went for a long run one day in the >falling snow. There was much fresh evidence of drilling and comfortising >of holds! That Domlomites quote comes from a very newly developed area. >I think many are up to the same dirty tricks - just maybe not so blatent >any more. A bit more creativity has been added to the process. > Head to Ceuse to see the new generation of French Limestone. Long sweeps of perfect limestone with plenty of distance between bolts to keep the heart pumping! The States are years behind Europe - Jacks Canyon in particular has always been known for blatant, indescriminant chipping. From what I understand manufacturing it is still rife in some other European countries unfortunately - Spain in particular and perhaps some area's in Italy such as the one you mention. As for the stubbies and headband, that never went out of fashion really did it? And with fashion being cyclic - isn't it about time for flourescent lycra tights to make a comeback?
nmonteith 12-Aug-2004 4:30:20 PM	On 12/08/2004 dalai wrote: >Head to Ceuse to see the new generation of French Limestone. Long sweeps >of perfect limestone with plenty of distance between bolts to keep the >heart pumping! > It is the #1 crag I plan to visit!
dalai 12-Aug-2004 4:39:28 PM	If that's the first cliff you are going to Neil, you won't be going to any others!! I spent 5 weeks there and only left because the snow was getting too heavy! Any beta you need for Ceuse I will glady oblige. Also how fit are you at the moment Neil? 45-60 minute uphill slog from the campsite Les Guerins gets you warmed up and keeps the crowds and polished holds away.
nmonteith 12-Aug-2004 4:43:14 PM	dalai wrote: > >Also how fit are you at the moment Neil? 45-60 minute uphill slog from >the campsite Les Guerins gets you warmed up keeping the crowds away. > Walking fitness is about all i have at the moment. Hiking up and down hills with a petrol drill, 20 rings, a rack, 50m static rope, crowbar, water... has really kept me fit. Quickdraws and a rope will feel like nothing! (hopefully).
dalai 12-Aug-2004 4:50:14 PM	You can stash your rope and draws up at the cliff to lighten the load even more, but must be hidden as a few kits were stolen when I was there. And if you are going to the Cascade sector and the waterfall is flowing you can get water also (though since I was there and drunk the water, I have read warnings not to as it flows off the plateau above where livestock graze in Summer). If you are tired of the walk, areas such as Orpierre is less than an hours drive away with 5 minute access. Would love to get back there again...
adski 12-Aug-2004 5:20:21 PM	On 12/08/2004 nmonteith wrote: >In many ways I would prefer not to talk to officialdom as they don't like >me (alledgedly). If you don't ask they can't say no!
WM 12-Aug-2004 5:25:36 PM	> petrol drill, 20 rings, 50m static rope, crowbar, water But thats what you need to take up to ceuse! new route potential is still massive. especially above 9a :) the walk's better than Moonarie - similar time but much better graded easily the best ceuse beta (that I've found) is by 'our' Gary Philips http://www.cragx.com/articles/issue16/ceuse/ - print out all these pages and topos and you don't even need the guide and no doubt you've already noticed the recent ceuse additions at (ahem!) http://www.geocities.com/willmonks/ceuse.htm
robbo 12-Aug-2004 9:58:01 PM	On 11/08/2004 Damietta wrote: >OK Wobbo, I think you get the messaage > >f--- off back to the Blueys mutherf---ER..... > >and take your fricking RYOBI wicha >You stick around here much longer >And someone's gonna hitcha >Gotda damn picha >An We aint gonna missya >Much rather dissya > >Heavy D (an dere aint no fat boys) > I'm starting to sense some hostility. For someone who on their profile claims they only climb in the gym your an opinunated mother f---er. Is it true you don't even climb outside damietta neverlone bolt routes yourself. If this is true your opinion counts towards about two fifths of f--- all. And if you want to get all agro send me your address and we can meet for real.
mikl law 13-Aug-2004 2:18:35 AM	Manufacturing has been used to make some of the best and worst routes in the country (where my routes sit will depend on your individual tastes). What is cleaning to one person, is manufacturing to another. And as Baxter and Robbo have said, what'sthe differnce between drilling a hole for bolts or fingers? There is a spectrum of actions that go from:- putting a foot on a mossy hold, cleaning moss, removing dangerous flakes, driving to the cliff, prising not-so-dangerous flakes to leave a better hold, all the way to chipping holds. Most people will draw a line somewhere, more for reasons of the ethics of this ill defined sport than for eco-reasons (driving to the cliff is worse than anything you can do climbing, and all that pales beside the vast and ugly lookouts the parks service put up). Many of the reasons to manufacture have gone now that there are gyms and glue (many flakes can now by discreetly reinforced that previously wouldn't stay).Rather than chip a hold, if you really need to make something possible, bolt a gym hold on. That way it can go free one day perhaps.
rodw 13-Aug-2004 7:18:07 AM	I have to disagree with you there Mr law, dont grey the issue, its wrong and no excusses....there are plenty of "natural" lines undeveloped, go and do them and leave the blank faces alone.
IdratherbeclimbingM9 13-Aug-2004 8:37:03 AM	On 12/08/2004 robbo wrote: >On 11/08/2004 Damietta wrote: (snip) >And if you want to get all agro The thread will be locked (as Damietta can testify).
nmonteith 13-Aug-2004 9:56:05 AM	And Lynn Hill freed the Nose of El Cap using Ray Jardines completely chipped 'Jardines traverse'.
dalai 13-Aug-2004 10:07:51 AM	Back to hijacking this Topic and renaming it the "People who think Ceuse is the best sport cliff in the world". Nice overview of the cliff WM. I didn't spend any time left of Sector Cascade, but they look like some good lower grade multi pitches. I felt Tenere at Cascade didn't compare to the other 7c+ at the sector such as Mirage or Le privililege du serpent. It's not as sustained as the others with the no hands, lying down, facing out rest before the bouldery crux through the final roof. Each sector has it's own unique style. With the steeper endurance routes of Cascade, the thin technical routes of Berlin. Easy to spent weeks if not months at the one cliff. The campsite is great. Small basic caravans are available at not much more than the cost of setting up the tent. Facilities are good with a bouldering wall for wet days and table tennis in the barn perfect for rest day competitions. Or spending rest days in Gap. Sitting in a cafe in the town square watching the mesdemoiselles whilst enjoying coffee.
Damietta 13-Aug-2004 10:21:35 AM	On 12/08/2004 Mr Wobb Wobbolina wrote >>I'm starting to sense some hostility. For someone who on their profile claims they >>only climb in the gym your an opinunated mother f---er. Is it true you don't even >>climb outside damietta neverlone bolt routes yourself. If this is true your opinion >>counts towards about two fifths of f--- all. And if you want to get all agro send me >>your address and we can meet for real. Don worry bro, we aven forgotten boucha, avanother beer an I'll beck to ya shortly. You jush shit tite and go fer enuther un. Thish ish under conTROLL eh?
nmonteith 13-Aug-2004 11:33:18 AM	On 13/08/2004 Edward Frillypants wrote: >Oh well, by that idiosyncractic logic everyone should chip what they want >then. I was just making a point that The Nose is one of the MOST chipped routes in the world if you consider pin-scarring as chipping (which I do). Many years ago I talked to Californian Steve Schiender who told me he had deliberately pin scarred sections of Lurking Fear (on El Cap) so it coudl be free climbed. He owned up to bashing pins in and out of hairline seams until they turned into finger locks. Most of the new bigwall 'free' routes in Yosemite rely on pin scars for their free version. Even the crux pitches on Ozymandias & Lord Gumtree at Mt Buffalo rely on pin scars for the free versions.
Damietta 13-Aug-2004 11:56:09 AM	I think I follow the logic Neil. So, as with bolting, do you think that enhancing routes so that they can be free-climbed is OK as long as it is done tastefully and responsibly? In reference to 'Lurking Fear' I guess that Schneider was only accelerating a physical process of scarring that would have occurred through time by many aid ascents. But, where and how do you draw the line. Is it up to the collective judgement and wisdom of the climbing fraternity to judge what is acceptable in the realms of modifying the rock to facilitate free climbing ascents - through a process of trial and error? It is more feasible to stand against the activity in question on principle - then you eliminate the fuzzy moral ground which no one could accurately define as far as I'm concerned. Otherwise I don't really see how a framework that permits drilling/chipping hold enhancement - perhaps a case by case basis that takes into account the individual and the climb concerned is plausible? - is workable.
nmonteith 13-Aug-2004 12:10:08 PM	On 13/08/2004 Damietta wrote: >I think I follow the logic Neil. > >So, as with bolting, do you think that enhancing routes so that they can >be free-climbed is OK as long as it is done tastefully and responsibly? No - I am cetainly against enhancing routes in theory. What I am trying to illustrate is that the 'problem' is much wider and fuzzy than most people understand. If people are educated on what has happened in the past then they can understand that not everthing is cut and dry. The more areas and routes you climb at the more you will see evidence of this 'dark side' of climbing. Anyone know Otto's Route at Colorado Monument in the USA? It was done in the 1920's (i think) and envolved fully cut steps up a rock ridge on a desert spire. It is still considered a much sort after classic today. >In reference to 'Lurking Fear' I guess that Schneider was only accelerating >a physical process of scarring that would have occurred through time by >many aid ascents. Wouldn't that mean someone drilling a pocket would be just be accelerating erosion? If I manged to drill a pocket by using a piton and hammer is that ok? Steve bashed pitons in to remove rock to create handholds. It seems like cut and dry chipping to me. >But, where and how do you draw the line. Is it up to the collective judgement >and wisdom of the climbing fraternity to judge what is acceptable in the >realms of modifying the rock to facilitate free climbing ascents - through >a process of trial and error? The current hard line is good in my opinion. It should be considered un-ethical.
nmonteith 13-Aug-2004 12:14:54 PM	On 13/08/2004 Damietta wrote: >In reference to 'Lurking Fear' I guess that Schneider was only accelerating >a physical process of scarring that would have occurred through time by >many aid ascents. > PS - Lurking Fear has been done as a clean-aid route for at least 20 years. It is a lowly A2+ from memory. When I aided it I certianly never felt the need to place pitons.
HEX 13-Aug-2004 12:56:20 PM	On 13/08/2004 rodw wrote: >I have to disagree with you there Mr law, dont grey the issue, its wrong >and no excusses.... Lean on 'im, Rodw --- LEAN ON 'IM !!!--- good onya, son ! Make a stand And be a man And you will have A great life planned !! Luv HEX & E.L.O.
rodw 13-Aug-2004 1:17:56 PM	I got a gold star from Hex, now my life is complete.:) Its easy to disagree with Mikl when hes 20,000kms away.

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