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General Climbing Discussion

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Manufacturing


alrob

2-Jul-2005
1:36:48 PM

nah, chip it KP! it'll be a rad! i'd do the route and call it Mega Classic on thecrag.com. then every punter will be lining up for it.


nmonteith

4-Jul-2005
8:26:22 AM

On 2/07/2005 steph wrote:
> The cliff belongs to no one (unless on private property where
>you can do whatever the hell you want)

Just because it is private property doesn't mean its ok! There are plenty of climbing areas around the world that are private property. I can think of several in Queensland for starters!


steph

4-Jul-2005
8:39:08 AM

On 4/07/2005 nmonteith wrote:
>On 2/07/2005 steph wrote:
>> The cliff belongs to no one (unless on private property where
>>you can do whatever the hell you want)
>
>Just because it is private property doesn't mean its ok! There are plenty
>of climbing areas around the world that are private property. I can think
>of several in Queensland for starters!

i spose. but i mean it's not great but you can't stop ppl if they own the place. they paid for it, they can choose to abuse it.

>and alrob...
grrrrrrrr


climbau

4-Jul-2005
8:43:57 AM

On 4/07/2005 steph wrote:
>i spose. but i mean it's not great but you can't stop ppl if they own
>the place. they paid for it, they can choose to abuse it.
They own the title, but do they OWN it? There is a responsibility that I think most climbers take seriously, don't do damage to that which we covet most. The rock!


rodw

4-Jul-2005
8:46:51 AM

Yeah they do down to about 6 feet i think??


IdratherbeclimbingM9

4-Jul-2005
12:23:41 PM

On 4/07/2005 rodw wrote:
>Yeah they do down to about 6 feet i think??
KP was right !!
Then you CAN ...
>can you treat it like an oil well.
>Underground and outta sight ?
;-P

(LOL ... it only took 12 words to refire the debate this time)

mikepatt

5-Jul-2005
4:15:10 PM

Robbot Ant.. very amusing. I sincerely hope it's not your real name.. Mike Hunt

7-Jul-2005
12:15:33 PM

Red pill or blue pill ?


nmonteith

7-Jul-2005
12:20:20 PM

12mm or 16mm? Un deux poches?


nmonteith

7-Jul-2005
12:37:46 PM

Phat fingered first pad or girly fingers first pad?

7-Jul-2005
12:43:50 PM

phat fingers. Pixie fingers might be 2 pad.


alrob

7-Jul-2005
4:56:35 PM

this is sounding like a great route kp. when do you think you'll be finished contruction?

7-Jul-2005
5:41:23 PM

thanks for the encouragement alrob !

its people like you, that keep me enthuised about setting..


Sabu

7-Jul-2005
11:25:04 PM

umm ok after spending literally at least half an hour possibly more reading this huge thread i've decided to say something!!
i think chipping is deffinately wrong, bolts where trad gear is availible is wrong and bolting an artificial hold to rock i would be horrified at (but not as bad as chipping)!
being a climber one has the responsibility to look after the rock and which without a doubt comes with ethical considerations. to even think about chipping or manufacturing a climb to suit, i think, has to come with an understanding of all of these ethics involved, such as will other climbers appreciate it? Respect for other climbers oppinions and beliefs has to be understood and taken into account. as it has been said earlier, it's just best to walk away because most likely more harm than good is done.
Personally i would never manufacture a climb to make it good, and i do condone it (amoung other things like chalk but we're not going there!!). there are of course exceptions to the rule like trundeling for example, better the rock be sent on it's way rather than take someone out on it's own accord. cleaning i think is dependant on the extent of it.
to sum it up, think (a LOT) before u decide to ruin a beautiful part of nature.
Cheers all
Sabu


animaland

8-Jul-2005
9:23:13 AM

Woohoo... what a mega-thread! My (probably unwelcome) 2 cents worth...

Up front :

* I've clipped bolts on the way up
* I've descended by rappelling from bolted chains
* I've not climbed any chipped holds (to my knowledge) or manufactured climbs (apart from at the gym).

The bolting and chipping "issue" is only such because we view the world as being available for our
exploitation (oh oh! here comes a green-coloured view.) As members of the "developed" world we have
long seen the environment as something we may (without concern) bend to our needs and wants. We may
divert and dam the river to feed our hydro scheme. We may mine the soil and chop down timber. We may
clear land of its vegetation and native inhabitants for our own agricultural needs.

As climbers we may make the rock climbable.

Sad. Whilst we decimate the planet just by our lifestyle, I hope that at least in a few activities we learn to
work within the world, rather than endeavour to turn it to meet our own desires. I would not be disappointed
to gaze up at many walls or mountains and think, "Wow, I guess nobody will ever climb them".

Why do we feel that if the world doesn't suit us we always have the "right" to change it so that it does? I
hope that those who climb feel awe for the billions of years of ongoing change that shape the forms we
climb. For us to chip, scratch and vandalize these forms in order to climb them is (to me) the utmost in
stupidity and arrogance.

Alan


nmonteith

8-Jul-2005
9:32:01 AM

There is an open letter in the latest Rock magazine from someone who is trying to get public feedback
about glueing on a gym hold onto a new route. Worth reading as he makes some good points.


oweng

8-Jul-2005
10:54:40 AM

Before I read the letter in Rock Neil is referring to, my opinion on bolting a hold to a route would have been "you must be joking!" By the end of reading the letter I wasnt so sure.

The most telling point to me was that I dont really currently have an issue with the placing of a single bolt to allow an aid move on a otherwise free route. Bat man starts are pretty rare (ive never actually done one) but they seem to be around and condoned. A bolt on hold is no different in impact to the rock, and allows the aid move to be eliminated making the route more pleasent. As long as the bolted on hold isnt dayglo orange and matches the rock, and as long as a second bolt isnt required for protection at the same point, its hard to argue (for me) that a single bolt on hold would be worse than a single aid bolt placed to allow a batman start.

To me then im faced with either

1) supporting the bolting on of a hold at the start of routes to allow them to go free (from where its a small leap to start supporting drilling a pocket instead of bolting on a hold, or

2) changing my opinion on aid bolts / batman starts to free routes (as they could be the start of a slippery ethical slope).

A tasty ethical dilema! Anyone else got an opinion? Im confused....


IdratherbeclimbingM9

8-Jul-2005
11:14:42 AM

Its not just starts. Its topouts as well as linking sections of climbs.
Warren Harding crossed blank sections of The Wall of Early Morning Light on its 1st ascent using aid bolts to link crack features.
Royal Robbins changed his mind about chopping them during the second ascent.
A precedent has been set in that part of the world.

If you allow one bolt on hold to make a grade consistant at (say) 24 when it would otherwise be unclimbable or a very high grade (at least), then how do you judge the 'wannabe' who reckons putting a couple more bolt on holds would make the same climb a very pleasant Gd 20 ?

Yes its an ethical dilemma but if history has taught us anything; ... it is that what is today regarded as impossible, often becomes do-able in the future.
Setting an ethical precedent is a luxury we CAN afford since we are blessed with so much rock in this country.
This may not always be so (population growth / restricted access issues etc), but it is up to those that follow to come to their own ethical conclusions.
I enjoy the freedom of choice, and wish to pass on that legacy uncorrupted by selfish actions of some of todays climbers.


rodw

8-Jul-2005
11:56:36 AM

I wouldnt do it (cause I thinks it pretty lame) but then I dont do aid either (cause Im not a gear freak), anyway my thoughts are, at the very least, once the moves go free without the using the hold it should be removed and regraded. If its obvious that it will never go free, ie completely blank etc, just dont put the route up, not everything has to be climbed.


nmonteith

8-Jul-2005
12:05:17 PM

On 8/07/2005 rodw wrote:
>If its obvious that it will never go free, ie completely
>blank etc, just dont put the route up, not everything has to be climbed.

Wouldn't that be half of Upper Shipley? Some of thsoe batman starts are huge!

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