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Manufacturing

12-Jun-2005
8:11:06 AM

Its a flawed argument to simply say i'm the bad guy and it would be a great climb regardless.

I don't know about NSW.. but in VIC a one move wonder has as much pulling power as 'a typical youies slab'.


mousey

12-Jun-2005
10:51:31 AM

perhaps, but id rather climb an all natural one move wonder than a bogus chipped piece of perfection...call me stupid but it detracts a lot from the xperience for me. i can understand your reasoning perfectly KP, and in all honesty it is probably a pretty nice climb, im sure id most likely enjoy the moves, but i view a line a bit of a puzzle and thus have issues with bringing it down to your own level rather than solving what natures given you.
its tempting to say'each to his own' but this is something where the actions of a few affects all of us. sure, by itself your climb does bugger all to degrade the climbing experience for the rest of us, but im not addressing a climb here- im addressing an issue. and whatever we personally believe, if we are publicly accepting of some chipping, then where does it stop?!! im not stupid, i know it happens a fair bit, and no im not doing anything to stop it happening, but i just cant bring myself to approve of it.
there are plenty of great all natural sustained lines still untouched, so why not just do one of them? (if of course, you still wantto chip it,do a mikl and dont tell anyone eh?!)


adski

12-Jun-2005
10:28:35 PM

I really don't mind one move wonders. And low cruxes are quite cool as when you've done them you can just relax and enjoy the climbing. That is, if that's what you climb for.


rhinckle

12-Jun-2005
10:44:00 PM

add a ring bolt for clipping and hanging off.
& add a M0 or M1 rating to the grade if this is used either for resting on or for moving off.

surely then everyone is happy?
(yeah sure)


Nick Kaz

12-Jun-2005
10:49:19 PM

Na na na na na na na na Batman start ;)


IdratherbeclimbingM9

14-Jun-2005
4:17:54 PM

On 12/06/2005 KP wrote:
>what a great thread this was.
>
>Theoretical question.
>
>THE most perfect arete exists.. Square cut and gritty... pulling onto
>it is a sequence of bouldery moves 28/29 (too hard for me) .. the rest
>of the route is amazing 24/25. One discrete well placed 2 finger pocket
>would make it doable and sustained, one of the better routes around melbourne.
> Is it that much of a crime ?
Yes.

>Its a flawed argument to simply say i'm the bad guy and it would be a great climb regardless.
>I don't know about NSW.. but in VIC a one move wonder has as much pulling power as 'a typical youies slab'.
Is this not the essence of bouldering?
What do you say to the next generation who are masters of the art of highball bouldering looking for new challenges?
... or in the meantime to the gifted individuals who can yard gd 29 and relax on gd 25?

I am with JCP on this one.

15-Jun-2005
2:34:04 AM

this is for lovers, running away...

jiminy cricket

16-Jun-2005
10:43:39 AM

On 12/06/2005 KP wrote:
>Theoretical question.
>
>THE most perfect arete exists.. Square cut and gritty... pulling onto
>it is a sequence of bouldery moves 28/29 (too hard for me) .. the rest
>of the route is amazing 24/25. One discrete well placed 2 finger pocket
>would make it doable and sustained, one of the better routes around melbourne.
> Is it that much of a crime ?

I feel a bit conflicted on this question actually. I would be annoyed that someone had drilled the rock unneccessarily but yet if the new pocket put this climb within my range, and it's such a great climb (part of KPs point), then I would go and climb it, and enjoy it guilt free. For me at least, the problem is not that the climb has been made easier, but that someone has seen fit to "damage" a common resource. KP question does say "discrete, well placed...", so for me at least, I see this theoretical case as a crime, but perhaps not much of one, and in my mind less of a crime than the widely accepted practise of wire-brushing routes, which has a far more visible effect and has the same result of making a climb easier.

Jim

dalai

16-Jun-2005
10:54:20 AM

Ethically I am against it - I have never nor will ever chip.

But I have climbed both Internationally and Nationally (don't be fooled thinking it's only Europe and America), and have enjoyed the fruits of their labour! If done well it improved the climb ten fold by producing a more flowing route at a consistent grade...


JJ

16-Jun-2005
11:13:43 AM

Just because you cant do a move doesn't give anyone the right to chip. A very experienced English friend once said to me, "...just because you can't do a move, it doesn't give you the right to bring the climb down to your level".

Are you trying to tell me there isn't enough rock around for new routing? If you've hit a blank impassible section, you haven't done a very good job on 'recon' when you 1st discovered the line.

If you want to manufacture a climb, turn your talents indoors.

When you chip, you've made a bed & your the one who has to lie in it.

JJ


nmonteith

16-Jun-2005
11:20:04 AM

Glue on a camo gym hold. If someone in the future does the move without it - then just tap the hold off with a hammer - and the route will return to its 'pristine' state. Of course the line of bolts and hangers will be as ugly as shit always.

dalai

16-Jun-2005
11:42:07 AM

On 16/06/2005 JJ wrote:
>Just because you cant do a move doesn't give anyone the right to chip.
>A very experienced English friend once said to me, "...just because you
>can't do a move, it doesn't give you the right to bring the climb down
>to your level".

You missunderstood. Not a matter of not being able to the moves, but having a quality, consistent route route. Quite a few of Arapiles harder routes for example tend to have bouldery cruxes and good sections of climbing at a grade a fair bit easier (ie. India has a really nice lower section at about 24-25, the couple move crux and more enjoyable and easier climbing above. Just one better hold in the middle would produce a superb grade 26, rather than the grade 28 it is)

PS I am not suggesting anyone go out and chip India, just using it as an example.

jiminy cricket

16-Jun-2005
12:11:54 PM

On 16/06/2005 nmonteith wrote:
>Glue on a camo gym hold. If someone in the future does the move without
>it - then just tap the hold off with a hammer - and the route will return
>to its 'pristine' state. Of course the line of bolts and hangers will be
>as ugly as shit always.

Well, better than chipping I guess.

On a related point, the fear involved in runouts means that for me, bolts reduce the difficulty of a climb. So, perhaps, a little like chipping, bolts are a permanent reduction in the difficulty of a climb in which a better, bolder climber might do without. I sometimes find it contradictory that the majority of people (myself included) accept bolts if they make a climb safer in the absence of natural placements, but are vehemently opposed to any other form of "enhancement". I guess people see safety as the overriding issue.

Please note: I'm not trying to bring up another bolting argument, or criticising the hard work that other people are putting, just using something similar, but largely accepted, as a comparison.

Jim

chris

16-Jun-2005
1:05:56 PM

Wank Wank Spurt at the Glen.....
Pull on the first bolt and you've got a nice (maybe a little easy) 24.
make the dyno and you've got something a few grades harder (as well as a nice big flapper).

Onsight

16-Jun-2005
1:14:17 PM

On 16/06/2005 jiminy cricket wrote:
>I guess people see safety as
>the overriding issue.

Yes, I think so. That's where I draw the line.

I guess you have to draw the line somewhere or everything will be brought down to the lowest common denominator, and we won't have any India's for the future. Ha! There are already numerous climbers, even in Australia, that don't consider 28 to be especially hard.

History has shown time and again that most chipping turns out to be a mistake.

dalai

16-Jun-2005
1:17:06 PM

Not saying 28 is hard, just that the couple of moves in the middle 'spoil' an otherwise nice route...


IdratherbeclimbingM9

16-Jun-2005
1:21:35 PM

28 IS hard*.

*Impossible? for me, who struggles on 20 / 21.
:(

Onsight

16-Jun-2005
3:51:28 PM

Don’t worry M8. The point was of course is that it’s all relative.

On 16/06/2005 dalai wrote:
>Not saying 28 is hard, just that the couple of moves in the middle 'spoil'
>an otherwise nice route...

I disagree. The crux on India definitely didn't "spoil" it for me, however I certainly think it would have been "spoilt" - and a huge mistake - had someone chipped it down to 26.

This sort of chipping is outright stealing from the future of the sport. It leaves those climbers of the future a big fat nothing (bouldery or otherwise). Everyone thought India was hard (or still do – whatever) and it was cutting-edge in its day, but honestly, now it’s far from it. In the future climbers here might be looking for 36's, 37's, and beyond. Just because many of us mightn't be able to climb anything like that hard, or even envisage it, doesn't mean swat.

dalai

16-Jun-2005
4:32:53 PM

On 16/06/2005 Onsight wrote:
>This sort of chipping is outright stealing from the future of the sport.
>It leaves those climbers of the future a big fat nothing (bouldery or otherwise).
>Everyone thought India was hard (or still do – whatever) and it was cutting-edge
>in its day, but honestly, now it’s far from it.

I am talking about having climbs which are consistent for the grade. I have found these style of routes more flowing and hence enjoyable rather a stroll with a couple of moves totally out of character with the rest...

Though not enhanced - a good example of routes at the Cascade sector at Ceuse. It's covered with amazing routes. Mirage, Privilege du Serpent etc. Then there were routes like Super Mickey and Tenere. The later couple of routes were far less enjoyable for me as the both had a bouldery section out of character with the rest. Super Mickey in the bulge and Tenere a desperate little boulder problem around a roof immediately after a bomber lying down no hands rest where you could kip for ages.

>In the future climbers
>here might be looking for 36's, 37's, and beyond. Just because many of
>us mightn't be able to climb anything like that hard, or even envisage
>it, doesn't mean swat.

Thats when you start knocking holds off to make it consistent for that harder grade... ;-)


IdratherbeclimbingM9

16-Jun-2005
4:57:46 PM

I appreciate that the grade issue was a relative one Onsight, and I agree with your sentiment, rather than the 'comfortise the flow of the climb' consistancy at grade thingy*.

*This point of view seems to me to be one of personal preference. It is apparent that Onsight and Dalai / Kent represent different preferences.

In the future there may well be those who seek out the challenging 'bouldery crux on a cruise' type climb, simply to experience the ebb and flow of it!

As for knocking off holds to make the harder grade consistent (I know you were trolling), that equals chipping also. Better methinks to raise the bar on an individual basis by climbing it without chalk or friction boots to make it harder for oneself if a challenge is still required on that particular climb.
While there is plenty of rock I'd go and look for another climb rather than bugger with comfortising up/down an existing one.

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