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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 10. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 191
Author
Vic Parks Camping Fee Proposal
kieranl
27/10/2013
10:20:51 AM
I missed some info at the foot of Friday's Grampians Parks Update on the proposed new Victorian Parks camping fee regime. Note the closing date for comment of 22nd November.
I've had a quick look but haven't digested everything yet. Mt Arapiles Tooan is classed as "special" with a proposed per-person fee per night of 0.39 "fee units". I've not yet worked out what a "fee unit" is. Found a table lower down - $5 per person per night.
I also haven't worked out how it impacts on Grampians/ Mt Buffalo.

"Victorian National Parks Camping and Accommodation Fees – Regulatory Impact Statement

The Department of Environment and Primary Industries (DEPI) has released a proposal for a user-pays approach to charges for camping and roofed accommodation in parks and reserves managed by Parks Victoria.
The new approach is designed to help fund ongoing maintenance and services to ensure that people can continue to enjoy these special places well into the future. Victorians are invited to provide comment on the regulatory impact statement by 22 November 2013.
For more information go to http:www.depi.vic.gov.au/camping "
kieranl
27/10/2013
10:41:04 AM
Other than Arapiles, Lower Glenelg Canoe camp and overnight hiking permits, here is the proposed fee structure

Very High – Powered – site up to 8 persons $65.90
Very High – Non powered – site up to 8 persons $59.20
High – Powered – site up to 6 persons $54.10
High – Non powered – site up to 6 persons $48.70
Mid – site up to 6 persons $37.80
Mid – per person $18.90
Basic and very basic – site up to 6 persons $19.30
Basic and very basic – per person $9.70
kieranl
27/10/2013
10:47:27 AM
Here are the proposed classifications of Grampians camping areas.
Note that dispersed bush camping is now proposed to be charged for at the basic rate of $9.70 per person or $19.30 for a site of up to 6 persons.
A night at Buandik will cost $37.80 for a site of up to 6 persons or $18.90 per person.
A night at Stapylton will cost $48.70 for a site, no per person charge.

Bomjinna Campground Mid
Boreang Campground Mid
Borough Huts Campground Mid
Buandik Mid
First Wannon Remote Campground Basic/Very Basic Permit
Jimmy Creek Campground High
Plantation Campground High
Smiths Mill Campground High
Stapylton Campground High
Strachans Campground Mid
Troopers Creek Campground Mid
Wannan Crossing Campground Mid
Dispersed bush camping Basic/Very Basic Permit
Overnight walking Special Fee
kieranl
27/10/2013
11:21:21 AM
There is also a proposal for camping passes for various periods

Vehicle Person
Annual $121.70 $43.50
Monthly $81.10 $29.00
7 Day $46.40 $16.60
Overnight $17.40 $6.20

It's not clear why these wouldn't apply to bush camping in Grampians :
"In the future, the Government will also consider a camping pass for dispersed camping and some basic/very basic campgrounds."
Wendy
27/10/2013
12:04:01 PM
There's part of me that just can't quite believe they think Stapylton etc are $50 campgrounds ...

I did just write a submission to them focusing on the fees being inconsistent with commercial camping rates and services provided, unreasonably expensive for individuals or groups of 2 (why can't they divide their rate by 6 and use it as an per person fee? It sounds so much more reasonable to charge $2-$10 per person per night), unfairly putting costs of infrastructure on certain user groups over others and likely to discourage people from using park campgrounds, increase random bush camping and fee avoidance.

JamesMc
27/10/2013
12:06:35 PM
My reading of the RIS gave me the impression that it would include dispersed camping, which would require a permit.
JamesMc
kieranl
27/10/2013
12:13:01 PM
On 27/10/2013 JamesMc wrote:
>My reading of the RIS gave me the impression that it would include dispersed
>camping, which would require a permit.
>JamesMc
Yes, they're proposing to charge for everything. I think dispersed camping comes under "very basic".
chalkischeap
27/10/2013
3:40:46 PM
This isn't going to work Parks Victoria.

Your revenues will not meet the cost of collecting the fees so you will have to put up the price to $100.



JamesMc
27/10/2013
9:46:27 PM
Well I've taken the time to read the RIS and surprise surprise, it's a crock. Just thinking about Basic & Very Basic Camping, Table A1 has the following annual costs..
General expenses (labour and fuel) $1.2M
Recurrent costs $0.16M (Much more for High standard )\
Incremental costs (Booking system etc) $3.5M
Other overheads (depreciation etc) $0.64M

Being a man with a very small brain I may be mistaken but I think this means they are proposing a $3.5 million system to collect fees for a service which costs $1.5 million to provide. Mind you, the RIS is too badly written to be able to tell what is a recurrent cost and what is a one off cost.

There's other problems too. A RIS is supposed to canvas a range of options (and MUST canvas non-regulatory options). There is no consideration of controlling costs - like why does it cost $1.5 million per year to provide basically zero service.

The RIS refers to a study of classes of campers and their attitudes to paying to camp. On class is "Confirmed wilderness campers" and I probably fall into that group. It asserts that we "feel that camping should be subsidised because State and National Parks are community goods..". I reckon this is a misrepresentation of what many of us think. I don't have a problem with "user pays" - it implies "non user doesn't pay" when no service is being provided. And if I camp in the wilderness, no service is provided by government to support my CAMPING. (Being there is arguably a different matter - that's what an entry fee is for.)

Speaking of which, there is no consideration of charging entry fees to parks, which would mean that everyone who uses parks contributes, not just the minority who camps.

Anyway, anyone who wants to respond to the RIS might consider the points above.

JamesMc
maxdacat
28/10/2013
9:12:16 AM
Does $50 a night even get you a hot shower?

ajfclark
28/10/2013
9:13:13 AM
At Lake Catani, yes, in five minute lots. After tracking around CPI for for a few years, prices there have started increasing a lot over the last year:

Sept 2010 for Jan 2011: $22.50 per site
Sept 2011 for Jan 2012: $23.00 per site (2.22%)
Sept 2012 for Jan 2013: $24.00 per site (4.35%)
Sept 2013 for Jan 2014: $31.40 per site (30.83%)

nmonteith
28/10/2013
9:54:41 AM
Suddenly the low admin paradise of the Grampians is becoming a lot less attractive.
Wendy
28/10/2013
9:56:42 AM
I think Catani is going to be in the $60 group. Catani has always been priced at about the same amount as a commercial campground. Except now it's nearly double.

What $50 gets you at Mt Stapylton is pit toilets, rainwater, a couple of cold showers. There might be a shelter and picnic tables, I can't remember. No rubbish collection. I thought it was odd when they installed the cold showers at these campsites and whether the water supply there was really sufficient, but organisations do strange things sometimes.

ajfclark
28/10/2013
10:09:00 AM
Don't forget the asbestos...
kieranl
28/10/2013
10:12:17 AM
“The user pays model will also be consistent with Government’s broader policies for cost recovery and will assist Parks Victoria with the management and protection of the surrounding environment and ensure ongoing access and enjoyment of these special places.” vi, Executive Summary
This suggests that campers will also be paying a de-facto Park-usage fee which is not levied on other park users, rather than simply paying for the cost of their camping. Management and protection of the surrounding environment is the normal operation of the park, not a specific element of camping.

sbm
28/10/2013
10:20:52 AM
So if we have until 22nd November to comment, who do we send the angry letters to?

nmonteith
28/10/2013
10:24:13 AM
On 28/10/2013 Wendy wrote:
>What $50 gets you at Mt Stapylton is

Rainwater - that you are not supposed to drink

Cold showers - that you have to fill yourself from the tap. I don't think i've ever seen anyone use them.

Shelter - that is usually filled with school kids and has no walls

Picnic tables - one table for two or so campsites

No rubbish collection

I think I'm just going to buy a fold out table and camp in the bush from now on. It's a shame that these ridiculous fees will mean there will no longer be a centralized campsite for climbers in the Grampians. That ss a big loss for travellers looking for a partner and kills the 'scene' all together.
patto
28/10/2013
10:25:34 AM
On 28/10/2013 kieranl wrote:
>“The user pays model will also be consistent with Government’s broader
>policies for cost recovery and will assist Parks Victoria with the management
>and protection of the surrounding environment and ensure ongoing access
>and enjoyment of these special places.” vi, Executive Summary
>This suggests that campers will also be paying a de-facto Park-usage fee
>which is not levied on other park users, rather than simply paying for
>the cost of their camping. Management and protection of the surrounding
>environment is the normal operation of the park, not a specific element
>of camping.
>

The funny thing is that most of the campers aren't the ones who are the greatest users of the expensive NP items. The day trippers are the ones that the NP are building the paved wheelchair accessible pathways for.

There would be huge costs in managing a NP like the Grampians.
Wendy
28/10/2013
10:27:50 AM
On 28/10/2013 sbm wrote:
>So if we have until 22nd November to comment, who do we send the angry
>letters to?

camping.RIS@depi.vic.gov.au

you can get a mailing address and copy of the full documents here:

http:www.depi.vic.gov.au/camping
kieranl
28/10/2013
10:29:21 AM
It is interesting looking at the table of charges for commercial non-powered sites around the Grampians. The maximum peak charge is $35 per night per site and the average is $29.83. This is for hot showers, flush toilets etc.
Parks are proposing to charge $37.80 for Buandik with pit toilets and nothing else and even more for Stapylton. It appears to be price-gouging rather than cost-recovery.
These campgrounds are just at the top end of basic, classing them as mid and high facilities is ludicrous.

The definition of a "high"-serviced area is "Some showers, Partially serviced, regular ranger patrols, mostly septic/sewer toilets, mostly designated sites, booking service, some drinking water, unique location". Apart from the limited water supply, the complete absence of septic/sewer toilets rules Stapylton out of that category.

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