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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 10 of 13. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 240 | 241 to 257
Author
Carrot failure @ Muline

nmonteith
24/11/2013
10:02:18 PM
On 24/11/2013 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 24/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>>A lot of this discussion seems to be centered around placing bolts that
>>are easy to replace. Can I counter that argument with...
>
>No, it's about placing bolts which won't require smashing the rock to
>remove when they eventually require replacement. Do you understand that
>some people think those patched over scars next to every bolt are really
>ugly and best avoided?

This is the potential scar that might appear in 50 years? And only because the guy rebolting it does a shit job - in 50 years. And this will still be the great moral dilema - in 50 years. And in the meabtime literally generations of climbers will have to deal with spinning hangers they can't lower off from and stupid bail biners. All because in 50 years it might leave a scar.
patto
24/11/2013
10:31:12 PM
On 24/11/2013 SBW wrote:
>You could use stainless all-thread glued in as opposed to a machine bolt.
>Uses the same hole, can probably be removed in the future by filing flat
>edges on it and removed with a large shifter (best to do a test). Then
>rebore hole.

The bolt would yield long before the glue breaks.
mikllaw
25/11/2013
5:22:05 AM
On 24/11/2013 SBW wrote:
>You could use stainless all-thread glued in as opposed to a machine bolt.

They have poor fatigue strength if there is any bending at all; that is, if the bracket becomes loose.
SBW
25/11/2013
7:54:09 AM
On 25/11/2013 mikllaw wrote:
>On 24/11/2013 SBW wrote:
>>You could use stainless all-thread glued in as opposed to a machine bolt.
>
>They have poor fatigue strength if there is any bending at all; that is,
>if the bracket becomes loose.

fair enough. Just thought it might have been an option

rodw
25/11/2013
9:20:37 AM
On 24/11/2013 One Day Hero wrote:

>No, it's about placing bolts which won't require smashing the rock to
>remove when they eventually require replacement. Do you understand that
>some people think those patched over scars next to every bolt are really
>ugly and best avoided?

Some people also view the loads of chalk that stays for ever on steep routes are an eye sore, or the rock scars for holds pulled off of etc during the many ascents or the trampling of bush tracks to the crag and general wear and erosion at the base..the list goes on if you want to use the 'some" people reasoning.

No solution is going to be 100% accepted or even be perfect, but worrying about a patched over scar in 10, 20, 30 years time will most likely be the lesser impact of climbing caused in that time frame.

Eduardo Slabofvic
25/11/2013
9:53:46 AM
On 24/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>They are annoying to clip if at your limit of reach!

Ah yes, the Chris Shepard bolt, always 10cm to high.

So once we've flogged the "this bolt that bolt" argument to death, we could then turn our attention to where to place bolts on a route.

Raping down and putting in a bolt every 3m might work in some instances, but spending time to identify clipping stances/holds, the direction/flow of climbing, things you might hit if you came off above the bolt, can lead to a better outcome also.

I done quite a few routes in the Grampians, and overseas (mostly the newer Asian crags) where the placement of the bolts made a terrible job of protection because who ever it was that did it put a bolt in every 3m and didn't consider anything else.

Bring on the dance of flame.
Kinetic
25/11/2013
9:55:22 AM
On 25/11/2013 rodw wrote:
>On 24/11/2013 One Day Hero wrote:
>
>>No, it's about placing bolts which won't require smashing the rock to
>>remove when they eventually require replacement. Do you understand that
>>some people think those patched over scars next to every bolt are really
>>ugly and best avoided?
>
>Some people also view the loads of chalk that stays for ever on steep
>routes are an eye sore, or the rock scars for holds pulled off of etc during
>the many ascents or the trampling of bush tracks to the crag and general
>wear and erosion at the base..the list goes on if you want to use the 'some"
>people reasoning.
>
>No solution is going to be 100% accepted or even be perfect, but worrying
>about a patched over scar in 10, 20, 30 years time will most likely be
>the lesser impact of climbing caused in that time frame.

That's a good point. I think a hole in the rock is less damaging than the removal and trampling of vegetation around the bases of climbs, and the removal of lichen and mosses that occurs during the cleaning of new routes. Damaging actual ecosystems made of of living organisms is worse than damaging a bit of rock. I know as rock climbers most people are probably more concerned about the aesthetic appeal of the rock itself, but trashing the ecosystem around the crag is far more damaging.

nmonteith
25/11/2013
10:38:45 AM
On 25/11/2013 Kinetic wrote:
>That's a good point. I think a hole in the rock is less damaging than
>the removal and trampling of vegetation around the bases of climbs, and
>the removal of lichen and mosses that occurs during the cleaning of new
>routes. Damaging actual ecosystems made of of living organisms is worse
>than damaging a bit of rock. I know as rock climbers most people are probably
>more concerned about the aesthetic appeal of the rock itself, but trashing
>the ecosystem around the crag is far more damaging.

I had the same thought the other day as i was digging out a crack of vegetation so the route would go on trad gear. I could have left the plant and dirt in the crack and placed a bolt, but apparently that is bad.

nmonteith
25/11/2013
10:42:58 AM
On 25/11/2013 Edward Oslabofvic wrote:
>Raping down and putting in a bolt every 3m might work in some instances,
>but spending time to identify clipping stances/holds, the direction/flow
>of climbing, things you might hit if you came off above the bolt, can lead
>to a better outcome also.
>
>I done quite a few routes in the Grampians, and overseas (mostly the newer
>Asian crags) where the placement of the bolts made a terrible job of protection
>because who ever it was that did it put a bolt in every 3m and didn't consider
>anything else.

Rap bolting should be massively discouraged! What works much better is ascender bolting. Start from the bottom and work upwards, that way you can judge where the previous bolt is, thus the fall distance and danger and test what jugs make good clipping stances. Even better, top-rope the rope (or self belay toprope with a grigri) and mark bolt placements well in advance of actually pulling out the drill. This is obviously much harder to do on overhung routes. I've seen it again and again with people bolting by just rapping down drilling. It always makes for crap bolt placements.

Eduardo Slabofvic
25/11/2013
11:39:27 AM
On 25/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:
> I've seen it again and again with people bolting
>by just rapping down drilling. It always makes for crap bolt placements.

Agreed. I would suggest when testing the position of a bolt, don't reach and mark the spot with you finger tips, reach and mark the spot with your wrist.
argos44
25/11/2013
11:47:01 AM
100% agree Neil. I often spend as much time working out the bolt placements as it takes to drill and bolt. Makes for a much better route and it often ends up totally different than the line you imagined from the ground.

nmonteith
25/11/2013
11:47:36 AM
On 25/11/2013 Edward Oslabofvic wrote:
>Agreed. I would suggest when testing the position of a bolt, don't reach
>and mark the spot with you finger tips, reach and mark the spot with your
>wrist.

Yes! When we now have 9 year olds cranking grade 30s reachy clips are a shit idea.

rodw
25/11/2013
11:51:24 AM
Didn't realize people still rap bolted..I've always done it from the ground going up...but TBH without top rope rehearsal ie actually climb the route your gonna get the implied sequence wrong every now and then thus making a clip harder than it should be.

Sabu
25/11/2013
11:58:18 AM
On 25/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>On 25/11/2013 Edward Oslabofvic wrote:
>>Agreed. I would suggest when testing the position of a bolt, don't reach
>>and mark the spot with you finger tips, reach and mark the spot with
>your
>>wrist.
>
>Yes! When we now have 9 year olds cranking grade 30s reachy clips are
>a shit idea.

Screw that. We can't afford to make things easier for the little blighters!
martym
25/11/2013
1:58:39 PM
On 12/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>Up I went to the first rusty looking carrot, unclipped the draw then tried
>the crux just after it. I fell off. With a heap of rope-strecth I dropped
>down and to the right quite a distance. The route is substantially overhung
>and I was now swinging in space with no contact with the rock about 6m
>below the 2nd bolt. Without prussics or jumars I decided to attempt to
>hand over hand up the rope (!!). To my amazement it worked! I got all the
>way up to the bolt above me, now with a huge loop of rope below, and grabbed
>the quickdraw. PING! The bolt fell out and I took the bungy jump drop onto
>my loop of rope. Yes - the bolt fell out in my hands.

What did you do after this freaky experience - lower down & leader cleaned?
Despite all the twists and turns this whole thread I am still curious about the original post!

nmonteith
25/11/2013
2:23:41 PM
Kent cleaned it on rap.
ademmert
25/11/2013
7:16:27 PM
On 25/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>
>Rap bolting should be massively discouraged! What works much better is
>ascender bolting. Start from the bottom and work upwards, that way you
>can judge where the previous bolt is, thus the fall distance and danger
>and test what jugs make good clipping stances. Even better, top-rope the
>rope (or self belay toprope with a grigri) and mark bolt placements well
>in advance of actually pulling out the drill. This is obviously much harder
>to do on overhung routes. I've seen it again and again with people bolting
>by just rapping down drilling. It always makes for crap bolt placements.

I thought the idea was to reach as far as you can and mark that spot, then when drilling go half a foot higher ;)

E. Wells
25/11/2013
7:39:42 PM
I have never not been able to clip a bolt, with the exception of being too weak. I recall skipping the last bolt on Corregidor simply from pure sundrenched exhaustion, if it was a ring I could've slapped it in like a pro AND it would be safer too AND my chalk bag would be lighter.....and the climb would be ten times less memorable. I recently paid $5.80 a piece for some 100mm ss Machine Bolts....that's what you get when you shop locally!!

nmonteith
25/11/2013
7:53:31 PM
On 25/11/2013 E. Wells wrote:
>.....and
>the climb would be ten times less memorable.

If you want an even more memorable experience you should just climb with the rope tied around your waist and a pocket full of pebbles and machine nuts.

E. Wells
25/11/2013
7:58:35 PM
don't forget a hammer and whatever u can pick up from the railway line in the walk in!!!

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There are 257 messages in this topic.

 

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