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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 2 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 61
Author
High-Altitude Brawl on Everest
plugngo
1/05/2013
1:27:15 PM
Good Ueli Steck interview on all this (audio).

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/Ueli_Steck_speaks_to_swissinfo.ch.html?cid=35682976
martym
1/05/2013
1:29:32 PM
On 29/04/2013 mallion wrote:
>A bit more info - http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=68020

I am not a mountaineer, so happy to be corrected - but wouldn't they be wearing crampons?
If so, wouldn't "stepping over" ropes with a leader tied in pose a serious risk:
"The climbers chose to step across the lines at a belay stance where 4 other sherpas were attached to the ice face whilst their lead climber continued to fix the line above. Stepping over the lines does not interfere in any way with the work being carried out. The climbers were soloing and not using ropes so there was no rope tangling either. In addition by passing beneath the lead climber no ice or snow could be knocked down on him."
One Day Hero
1/05/2013
1:29:40 PM
On 1/05/2013 ratherbeclimbinV9 wrote:
>Look, I get that you're injured and bored, but it doesn't mean I'm going
>to entertain you. Soz.

>As for 'bit of biffo', is that
>what they call it when you are told to crawl out of a tent and apologise
>or you'll be killed by '100 angry sherpa'?

Then he wrote;
>Anyhow, I hate Internet rumour-mongering.

Gosh that's daft! Do you not see how nonsensical it is to have those two statements in the one post?

Edited to maintain pg rating..............however, viewers are encouraged to substitute the sort of words I would usually use in the place of 'gosh', 'daft', and 'nonsensical'

The good Dr
1/05/2013
1:33:36 PM
Damo, you are now adding insult to injury.
kieranl
1/05/2013
2:04:09 PM
On 1/05/2013 ratherbeclimbinV9 wrote:
>Hmm... I think you've missed a few things.
Well I'm not into writing War and Peace out in full..
It sounds like at least two of the three guys knew what the deal was but did their own thing anyway. There was some rubbish on another forum along the lines of "noone owns the mountain". Well all of the non-Nepalis there will have paid the Nepal govt a shedload to be able to take their holidays on Everest so it looks to me as if they all admit that the Nepalis own it.
Here's a little exercise : take the reports and everywhere the word "sherpa" appears,substitute "CFMEU building worker" and for "Lhotse Face" substitute "building site". You'll probably end up thinking the climbers got off lightly.
maxdacat
1/05/2013
3:19:23 PM
You really think a group of commercial rope-fixers should automatically take precedence over 3 independent alpinists.

This is what the rope-fixing is trying to achieve:

http://www.planetski.eu/images/site/everest_line_400.jpg
kieranl
1/05/2013
3:26:39 PM
On 1/05/2013 maxdacat wrote:
>You really think a group of commercial rope-fixers should automatically
>take precedence over 3 independent alpinists.
>
No.I believe that the safety of a bunch of employees doing a difficult and dangerous job takes priority over the wishes of a group of people playing sport.
maxdacat
1/05/2013
3:33:53 PM
So the next time you go to a crag to do a route and a commercial group tell you to go away because they are fixing top ropes you will comply? Interesting!

tnd
1/05/2013
3:34:45 PM
Those pesky sherpas are lucky Chuck Norris wasn't climbing that day.
kieranl
1/05/2013
3:41:58 PM
On 1/05/2013 maxdacat wrote:
>So the next time you go to a crag to do a route and a commercial group
>tell you to go away because they are fixing top ropes you will comply?
> Interesting!
Not necessarily. It depends on the risk profile they are working under. Working at close to 8,000 metres is a substantially more hostile environment than Bushranger Bluff.
maxdacat
1/05/2013
3:48:31 PM
yeah probably a slightly extreme counter-example. I'm curious what the danger actually was in the Everest situation. Climbers say they didn't knock ice or touch ropes and climbed 50m to left then below the leader to cross. "Falling ice" seems unlikely on a snow plod so maybe the issue was potential avalanches in which case i could see the sherpa's point.
One Day Hero
1/05/2013
3:50:24 PM
On 1/05/2013 maxdacat wrote:
>So the next time you go to a crag to do a route and a commercial group
>tell you to go away because they are fixing top ropes you will comply?
> Interesting!

I think it's safe to say that if your project is unavailable owing to a commercial group toproping beginners, it might be time to find a sport which you don't suck at!
Damo666
1/05/2013
3:53:35 PM
On 1/05/2013 kieranl wrote:
>On 1/05/2013 maxdacat wrote:
>>You really think a group of commercial rope-fixers should automatically
>>take precedence over 3 independent alpinists.
>>
>No.I believe that the safety of a bunch of employees doing a difficult
>and dangerous job takes priority over the wishes of a group of people playing
>sport.

Absolute rubbish.

Why should doing it for money make it more worthy than anything else? The lame excuse 'just doing my job' has been used for all sorts of travesties.

You should go help that guy who wants to bolt all of Buffalo for his TAFE group, Kieran. After all, it's his job to make all his clients safe and anyone else is just playing, eh?

No one there is curing cancer or bringing peace to the Middle East, it's all 'playing sport'. Some just need more help playing their sport because they're not as good at it, so they pay poorer, stronger people to make it easier. Some don't. The two have clashed.

maxdacat
1/05/2013
4:01:11 PM
On 1/05/2013 One Day Hero wrote:
>I think it's safe to say that if your project is unavailable owing to
>a commercial group toproping beginners, it might be time to find a sport
>which you don't suck at!

congratulations....you made me chuckle :p
kieranl
1/05/2013
4:29:16 PM
On 1/05/2013 Damo666 wrote:
>On 1/05/2013 kieranl wrote:
>>On 1/05/2013 maxdacat wrote:
>>>You really think a group of commercial rope-fixers should automatically
>>>take precedence over 3 independent alpinists.
>>>
>>No.I believe that the safety of a bunch of employees doing a difficult
>>and dangerous job takes priority over the wishes of a group of people
>playing
>>sport.
>
>Absolute rubbish.
>
>Why should doing it for money make it more worthy than anything else?
>The lame excuse 'just doing my job' has been used for all sorts of travesties.
>
I make no judgements of what is a "worthy".activity. I think the safety of third world workers being paid by relatively rich people to do an extremely dangerous job is more important than the whims of a few tourists. People pay a lot of lip-service to respecting the job that the sherpas do but I suspect that a lot of it is just that,lip-service.
A lot of sherpas have been killed on Everest and other mountains and I suspect this incident reflects some of the real underlying tension among sherpas working in the mountains, The money is really good in relative terms but the risks are huge.

billk
1/05/2013
4:37:44 PM
http://www.theage.com.au/world/wheres-my-tea-why-everest-sherpas-have-had-enough-20130501-2iscq.html

The good Dr
1/05/2013
4:50:10 PM
On 1/05/2013 Damo666 wrote:
>On 1/05/2013 kieranl wrote:
>>On 1/05/2013 maxdacat wrote:
>>>You really think a group of commercial rope-fixers should automatically
>>>take precedence over 3 independent alpinists.
>>>
>>No.I believe that the safety of a bunch of employees doing a difficult
>>and dangerous job takes priority over the wishes of a group of people
>playing
>>sport.
>
>Absolute rubbish.
>
>Why should doing it for money make it more worthy than anything else?
>The lame excuse 'just doing my job' has been used for all sorts of travesties.
>
>
>You should go help that guy who wants to bolt all of Buffalo for his TAFE
>group, Kieran. After all, it's his job to make all his clients safe and
>anyone else is just playing, eh?
>
>No one there is curing cancer or bringing peace to the Middle East, it's
>all 'playing sport'. Some just need more help playing their sport because
>they're not as good at it, so they pay poorer, stronger people to make
>it easier. Some don't. The two have clashed.
>
>
The European group were hardly 'independant alpinists'. They are a heavily sponsored expedition with obligations to their sponsors.

SO, If Uli and his mates got into trouble high on the mountain, who would likely have gone to their assistance? The fixed ropes would have been used to get them down as well. In many ways, even for the 'adventure' mountaineers, the presence of extremely experienced and competent Sherpas on Mt Everest has actually devalued the risk as there are large rescue teams available, with good support who are willing to put their life at risk, and occasionally die, to rescue 'independant alpinists' on Everest. Yes the Sherpas were working and overall it is of benefit to all of the parties on the mountain. It has been like that for many years and includes finding and sorting out the route across the Khumbu icefall. Those crossing ladders don't get there by themselves. Given that Uli and Simone have been on Everest many times before they would be aware of the preparation that goes on and who does what. They have benefited from these arrangements in the past.

The stories from either side are bound to be conflicting (the Rashomon effect) as perspectives and egos get in the way. The other point is that Uli and Simone Moro are sponsored climbers who climb for a living and require the publicity to continue doing so (really they are working as well). Jonathan Griffith is the photographer for the expedition. Each of these parties have working conditions, each is doing their job. Unfortunately the 'free spirit of us mountaineers' crap has blinded so many posters to the intentions, backgrounds and positions of the parties.

From reading the various posts from people involved and observers it is obvious that the situation was complex and that the reactions of all parties was far from good. It is interesting and illuminating that some of the observers, who are friends with the Euro team, are refusing to be drawn on what actually happened. I am sure that the truth will out and some of the parties involved are not going to look as angelic as the initial stories indicated.

Macciza
1/05/2013
5:30:48 PM
No - Just wait for the movie, with Stallone and Cruise as the climbers, and Travolta as the Cameraman. though the best part will be all the cameos littered through out it . . .
Damo666
1/05/2013
5:34:49 PM
You can see my comments as 'Damo' about all this in more than a few places at:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=547936
Damo666
1/05/2013
6:59:39 PM
On 1/05/2013 ratherbeclimbinV9 wrote:
>On 1/05/2013 Damo666 wrote:
>>You can see my comments as 'Damo' about all this in more than a few places
>>at:
>>http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=547936
>
>Can you expand on 'reward on offer' (mentioned in a few of your posts
>edit: sorry, you're right - once)?
>
>I can't imagine most of the x,000 climbers that have done Everest are
>making bank as a result, so presume you're talking about either the money
>given to commercial guides vs sherpas or the general opulence (corpulence?)
>of the Everest climbers nowadays versus the money made by Sherpas that
>risk their lives for the fat unfit wankers that line up?
>
>Edit: Having read a few more of your posts they are very interesting in
>the context of the whole discussion and from an armchair (and without any
>aplinist aspirations, I'd very comfortably say) perspective, I also wonder
>whether Everestism will be affected, and how.

I only see 'reward' there once, but...

Most of the south side climbers pay >$50K for their trip. Some pay up to $100K. Most climbing Sherpas would get around $6K (though some less) for a season on Everest? Western guides get up to $30K (though some much less).

But it's the Sherpas doing all the hard work and taking most of the risk. It's them doing multiple trips through the icefall risking their lives to take even more oxygen and even more food to C2 and higher to make the clients' climb even easier. They see a lot of money in the system, of which they receive a small fraction, yet they make it all happen. They probably feel their cut is insufficient. I do.

They see incompetent clients getting a degree of fame and media coverage on the back of their effort and skill and 'guides' who can barely look after themselves at 8000m let alone clients - while they remain in obscurity.

They see clients living in relative luxury in BC with things they can't even afford back in their homes (iPads, booze, fresh meat etc). People can blather on with all the macroeconomics they like to explain it away. These are people we're talking about.

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There are 61 messages in this topic.

 

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