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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 9. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 168
Author
Shooting In National Parks - NSW
sleake
31/05/2012
12:11:23 PM
Hey Guys and gals.

Normally have no interest in politics, however this has reved me up enough to vent about it on here.

Pretty major backflip by the NSW government on this issue.... long story short - with the right licence shooters can now enter 79 national parks and hunt feral animals.

Now while I have my own issues with the ethics of getting non-pro hunters to cull ferals, I think the biggest issue the users of these parks will face is the risk of being wrongly identified and shot.

This happened last year in New Zealand, where a woman was tragically killed by a hunter while she brushed her teeth in a DOC campground.

If one user group can have such a significant impact upon all other users of PUBLIC land, then I feel the public should have the right to determine what takes place in such areas.

More info here

http://www.npansw.org.au/index.php/news-parentmenu-419/182-2012/752-premier-allows-shooting-in-nsw-national-parks.html

Time to get on the case of local MPs and try and show that the majority of park users (i realise that climbers are only part of the whole group) dont want this to be pushed through.

Cheers, Steve

shortman
Online Now
31/05/2012
12:37:41 PM
Thats disgraceful.
One Day Hero
31/05/2012
12:56:53 PM
The Liberals had to do a deal with the Shooters Party in order to get their sale of electricity generation infrastructure through the upper house. So it's kind of a win-win situation.................if you happen to be a Billionaire oligarch who enjoys shooting shit! :(

nmonteith
31/05/2012
12:59:31 PM
I don't see what the issue is if they are only shooting goats, pigs, horses, cats, dogs etc.... they have no place in our parks anyway. The damage goats especially do is horrendous. Providing it's heavily controlled I would have no problems with it - permits given to specific areas after a briefing from rangers and a sign in and sign out system. Bans on shooting near campgrounds and other high traffic areas.
Damo666
31/05/2012
1:00:30 PM
Just wait until they reply to our complaints by telling us that we should wear brightly coloured clothing when we go walking or climbing if we don't want to be accidentally shot.


nmonteith
31/05/2012
1:02:30 PM
I actually think the NZ hunting system works kind of well. It seems hunters there are more environmental kind of temperament - real bush men who go solo backcountry for weeks on end tracking deer. I've met a couple in the mountains over the years and they were nice guys. No beer drinking, 4WD destruction and huge bonfires that I saw. The hunters I've met in Australia always seem to be the bogan Aussie Pride kind of morons.
maxdacat
31/05/2012
1:19:22 PM
Not sure if ferals belong in National Parks....then there is also the problem of invasive species.
Damo666
31/05/2012
1:23:03 PM
Hunting season for bear opened that day, August 2. "Obviously, though," Hebner qualified, "it's not legal to shoot someone."

Phew! Glad they cleared that up.
http://www.wta.org/trail-news/signpost/hiker-killed-by-hunter-on-sauk-mountain from:
http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB3/oregon-hunter-murders-hiker-pretending-to-be-bear-t60194.html?hilit=hunting%20shooting

I realise it's not exactly the same, but there are some interesting comments, without trawling all 11 pages, on this thread:
http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB3/hiking-in-hunting-season-t55759.html?hilit=hunting%20shooting

I used to occasionally hunt as a teenager. I like guns. I don't shoot anymore. I get no joy in killing animals for sport. In Australia we have a long history of shooting on farms, private property (with permission), crown land and other areas. National Parks have largely been for non-hunting recreation and infrastructure has been developed with that in mind. I think the government would want to really cover their asses with a view to the legalities down the track of allowing this, given long-standing encouragement of walking, wildlife watching, photography, school groups, (tolerance of) climbing, abseiling etc. No doubt many will argue they are not incompatible. Until someone gets shot. I'm not sure they can have it both ways.

I also know from personal experience that Australia has a long history of idiots with guns trespassing on farms and other private property, leaving gates open, accidentally shooting stock, and other incidents. In certain areas outside of Sydney (not sure about Melb) groups of men have been encountered trespassing on private property with high-powered rifles. This stuff usually goes unreported, for a few reasons. There are related issues with certain thefts of certain types of stock at certain types of year. I'd hate to see these people given permission to shoot anywhere near where people might be.
ARidgley
31/05/2012
1:23:12 PM
Sleake, is your gripe a safety issue or an environmental issue?

I'm not a hunter. I just couldn't bring myself to do it. However, I don't see any ethical problem with hunting, especially hunting for food. If an animal is going to die for my table, I'd rather it have a wild, free life first rather than in a pen or cage. That means I should hunt to satisfy my own ethic. I'm just too much of a coward.

In my very limited experience, I've found most hunters to be environmentally aware and possessing very strict moral and ethical standards. I think many (if not most) would be more environmentally aware than your average national park tourist.

Feral animals are a blight on our ecosystems. Yes, one way to control this would be through professional hunters. However, the NPs don't have that sort of money and never will. It's not a strategy that has any hope of working. Why not utilise people that want to do the job for free, provided they are regulated. I can't tell you what such regulation would look like because I'm not a hunter. But if a professional hunter can do it, then why not an amateur that sticks to the same regulations?

As for safety, it gives me the willies too. But I admit to being ignorant. I'm not aware of the NZ case that you speak of, but no doubt it's a tragedy that could have been avoided. I wonder how many tourists in parks like Yosemite, Squamish, Zion etc have been taken out by climbers dropping or dislodging something. Should we be banned too.

Without looking deeply into the regulations proposed I don't know if it's a good idea or not. But I sure can't say it's a bad idea either as there seems to be some real benefits if the safety side of things can be controlled.


BlankSlab
31/05/2012
1:25:50 PM
Im curious as to how many people walk / climb and other things throughout state forests within NSW?
Are you aware that for many years now NSW games council permits hunting in more the 450 state forests with the correct permission?
Just curious if this has had a negative effect on anyone here?

I would assume as national parks being a lot more sensitive that the restrictions that apply would be a lot tighter then those in place already for hunting on public land.

I think hunting in general in Australia has and will probably be seen in bad light because of a select few who as Neil mentioned are the "Beer drinking, 4WD and huge bonfire crowd" There are a lot more out there in the other boat its just a shame the bogan ones are the ones people come into contact with.

Its a bit of a shame to hear of this as i sit on the fence as a recreational hunter and a user of national parks for other rec activities. I also work for an energy supplier in nsw and would rather not see the energy industry privatised (i like my job and would like to keep it). If anything i dont think its right for either of the issues to be traded for on another.
Duncan
31/05/2012
1:33:46 PM
Having professional hunters go out and cull feral animals is different to letting Wayne and his mates go out with a few tinnies and a rifle. Of course feral animals have no place in our National Parks, but neither do guns wielded by amateurs.
bobic
31/05/2012
1:42:36 PM
It'll be interesting to see if feral animal numbers decline. I'm sure if they start running out of things to shoot they'll be releasing more pigs into the bush. The Shooters Party must really love killing things if they'll agree to any policy as long as the trade off is they are allowed to hunt wherever they want.

hangdog
31/05/2012
1:48:29 PM
On 31/05/2012 Duncan wrote:
>Having professional hunters go out and cull feral animals is different
>to letting Wayne and his mates go out with a few tinnies and a rifle.
>Of course feral animals have no place in our National Parks, but neither
>do guns wielded by amateurs.

Do you know any professionals hunters ? or any amateurs? Is it the fact that they are not being paid the problem?
One Day Hero
31/05/2012
1:53:32 PM
On 31/05/2012 ARidgley wrote:
>is your gripe a safety issue or an environmental issue?
>
I reckon the americans have shown time and time again that letting lots of people run around in the bush with guns is a safety issue.

I don't find the guns in parks thing as disturbing as the Liberals willingness to bargain with these nutters. I wonder how long till the fishing sanctuaries get traded away?

BlankSlab
31/05/2012
1:56:54 PM
On 31/05/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>
>I don't find the guns in parks thing as disturbing as the Liberals willingness
>to bargain with these nutters. I wonder how long till the fishing sanctuaries
>get traded away?
>

There was an issue with this about 18 months (i think) ago regarding the Gaden Trout Hatchery in Jindy. Eventully the people won and it stayed state owned.

EDIT:
Sorry think i miss understood your comment and thoguht you were talking about Fisheries inferstructure not fishing sanctuaries.

EDIT again:
The comaprrison of us to the USA is apples to oranges really. You can't make that comparrison unless you look at the legislation behind gun ownership and licensing.
Damo666
31/05/2012
2:01:47 PM
On 31/05/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 31/05/2012 ARidgley wrote:
> I wonder how long till the fishing sanctuaries
>get traded away?
>

There's already a problem with illegal overfishing in NSW National Parks. ABC Radio did a story on it a couple of months ago. It's allowed, under permit, but the permits and regs are ignored and it's too hard to police.
climberman
31/05/2012
2:04:44 PM
On 31/05/2012 Batey wrote:
>On 31/05/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>>
>>I don't find the guns in parks thing as disturbing as the Liberals willingness
>>to bargain with these nutters. I wonder how long till the fishing sanctuaries
>>get traded away?
>>
>
>There was an issue with this about 18 months (i think) ago regarding the
>Gaden Trout Hatchery in Jindy. Eventully the people won and it stayed state
>owned.
>
>EDIT:
>Sorry think i miss understood your comment and thoguht you were talking
>about Fisheries inferstructure not fishing sanctuaries.

Although the fisheries one with Gaden is interesting. It's now not funded from general revenue but from the Rec Fishing Trust, which is where NSW licence fees go. It's a mighty big part of the Freshwater side of the RFT expenditure. Gummint had rec fishers over a barrel - pay or lose it.

The Greens could have prevented this one by voting for the privatisation.
Damo666
31/05/2012
2:06:09 PM
On 31/05/2012 Batey wrote:
>
>The comaprrison of us to the USA is apples to oranges really.

As I said. But I think some of the comments in that thread were illustrative of how 'hikers' and others will change their behaviour knowing that people are shooting nearby. There will clearly be clashes over priority of use.
Duncan
31/05/2012
2:06:19 PM
On 31/05/2012 hangdog wrote:
>Do you know any professionals hunters ? or any amateurs? Is it the fact
>that they are not being paid the problem?

From an ethical point of view it's better that animals are killed immediately, rather than dieing a slow, painful death. I'd say it's safe to assume that someone who is paid to cull feral animals would be better than some battler.
frasero
31/05/2012
2:24:54 PM
Justifying this as effective enviro management is daft. There is nothing strategic about it. Effective pest management should be based around protecting assets (sensitive veg, rare animal communities not to mention the passive social values that parks provide and are established for). Having blokes running all over the shop trying to bag a trophy might knock off a few in the short term but all it does is open up space for others to move in (with the huge cost of regulating such activity and the lost amenity to most other users). Just like the fox bounty in Vic- totally pointless from a conservation perspective

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