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Bolting in the Warrumbungles

Estey

4-Jun-2011
12:08:04 PM

On 3/06/2011 simey wrote:
>I can't comment on the specific bolts placed at the Bungles as I have yet
>to climb there. I'm just surprised that people have made the effort to
>place rap bolts there when some of the mega-classic routes at the Coal
>Ovens in the Wolgan still require you to do multiple raps from manky little
>trees as the standard descent.
>

The climbers that frequent those cliffs are often canyoner types who sometimes insist on rapping off the smallest shrub possible. These do rip out occasionally but it is not really a problem as they grow back quickly.


ChuckNorris

4-Jun-2011
4:54:55 PM

Estey - took me a second read but that is a very funny response.

I like your style.

king335

5-Jun-2011
8:48:15 PM

hi all, sorry for my late response. i've been away for the last few days.
Ranting continued... (this installment- reply to posts)

First off. Citationx and TND. i have to ask what my age and name have to do with the ethics of bolting?

Rod W. if you really want i can post some pics of the bolts and the removal scars. i did for get my camera so i will try and get the ones off my co-conspirator. at the moment there are two holes slightly larger then what the bolts were. we do intend to fill the holes with putty but are waiting to remove the ones on lieben so we can do both on the same trip. if the bolts weren't placed in the first place then it would be imposable for any bolt removal scar to be there. perhaps the bolters should be responsible for the mess that they started.

Linze. yes i am a wanker with some unjustified elitist jerk off ethics views and opinions. however my post was deliberately over the top. i did this for two reasons.
first, to set the bar high so others could rant as hard as they like without fear of becoming the biggest "wanker" on chockstone.
second, i was hoping for a "who are you to enforce your rules on other climbers" comment. although no one did on this blog, Mr Monteith did say this in a personal email he sent- "Who are you to enforce arbitrary rules?" well i ask this. who are you to enforce your probolt ethics on others? placing bolts has a far greater impact, both mentally and visually to any climbing area then no bolts. maybe you should consider this every time you take out your drill.
In regards to pins, i think Eduardo explains it well enough

Minguel75- perhaps the silver scratchy stuff could come with the guide as a set of stamps. each climber gets her/his own symbol. that way everyone knows who to beat up in the pub for chopping their bolts : )

Winston- i have spent a lot of time in the blue mtns. i enjoy climbing there both sport and trad. The nature of the sandstone in the mtns lends itself well to sport and mixed climbing with far greater access and use by other climbers. there is also more rock there then anyone could climb in a life time, perhaps the bolters time would be much better served there then on some route at some place in the middle of nowhere that would be lucky to see 3 ascents a year.

Kuu & Dr Nick- The bolts in in question were added to CR and L. not replacing old ones. they were not to reduce a run out or make a bad belay safe, they were added to make retreat easier and more convenient.

M9 and WM- thanks for your input. it's good to see some people read through bullshit attitudes (in this case mine), friendships and whatever else to discuss the real issues that are being spoken of.

mikl- I cant believe that you are using the "it's hard to retreat" line on cornerstone as reason to bolt it. Listen to yourself. the climb is a 180m grade 14. one of the easiest climbs out there. if climbers aren't competent to retreat off CR (which should only need be done if a climber is injured or rained on) then they should probably climb somewhere else first and gain the knowledge and experience they need to climb safley in the bungles. (from what i could find out from NPWS no one has been killed in any climbing related accidents in the nation park so far.)
it's not your local city crag with rescue services a short 10-30mins away you need to be able to look after your self out there.
and the whole ugly tat thing. i think both M9 and Andrew M made the point, if everyone removes what they see as they climb past it then it would not be an issue. (also to those interested, the second bolt on CR was "backed up" with a sling around the bollard that they had to cut SO MUCH tatt off.

it would seem that this evenings rant has come to an end. stay posted for the next installment of-
THE ELETIST JERK RANTS ON BOLTING


vwills

5-Jun-2011
9:33:22 PM

Mikl, I don't think escape/ rap bolts were necessary on Cornerstone Rib.

Andrew, grow up.


rodw

5-Jun-2011
10:24:15 PM

Yeah show the piccys...you have before and after shots?...we can then see who made the bigger mess...maybe a poll...I love chocky polls.


Miguel75

5-Jun-2011
11:28:56 PM

On 5/06/2011 rodw wrote:
>...maybe a poll...I love chocky polls.

I like icy poles more!;)

jrc

5-Jun-2011
11:33:08 PM

The lower bolt on Cornerstone Rib was placed next to a severely corroded piton that appears to have been used wth some regularity for retreat. It was there the first time I did CR(1976). Whether you like it or not people for various reasons have backed off here. The piton is so corroded however that it is borderline whether it is safe to abseil from it.

Sadly, not everyone who goes to the Bungles is as skilled as you are and sometimes they get into trouble even on one of the easiest climbs there. And, in the stress of a retreat situation, especially if there is a storm or an injury to cope with, they may not be in a position to place the most reliable pieces of backup equipment. It seems leaving the decaying piton alone is a poor legacy to a party that has a true need of a more reliable anchor.

I recommend you return and replace the necessary bolts to make the liklihood of an accident negligible.

martym

6-Jun-2011
8:14:12 AM

On 5/06/2011 king335 wrote:
> I cant believe that you are using the "it's hard to retreat" line
>on cornerstone as reason to bolt it. Listen to yourself. the climb is a
>180m grade 14. one of the easiest climbs out there. if climbers aren't
>competent to retreat off CR (which should only need be done if a climber
>is injured or rained on) then they should probably climb somewhere else
>first and gain the knowledge and experience they need to climb safley in
>the bungles. (from what i could find out from NPWS no one has been killed
>in any climbing related accidents in the nation park so far.)
>it's not your local city crag with rescue services a short 10-30mins away
>you need to be able to look after your self out there.

Of course, in this emergency situation, removing the rap will make it that little bit harder - and when someone finally does die on CR - you can be sure the Newspapers will be scrutinising this forum post and questioning your authority to make these choices.

mikllaw

6-Jun-2011
8:53:54 AM

For interest, here's SOME of the tatt. The fat rope was connected to the slings (which were in fair shape) to get the rap point down to the lip of the gully so rap ropes could be pulled. The fat rope was a bit trashed and had cut 90% through at one point, probably from wind abrasion.


nmonteith

6-Jun-2011
9:34:19 AM

When is someone going to chop all the retro staircases and handrails? Climbers have been walking up that hill for years without them. I reckon there would be literally thousands of new bolts in that monstrosity. Someone should also chop down the mobile phone towers as they make it way easier to call for a rescue.


pmonks

6-Jun-2011
10:54:15 AM

On 6/06/2011 nmonteith wrote:
>When is someone going to chop all the retro staircases and handrails?

WTF are you talking about Neil? The staircases and handrails weren't put up by climbers (unlike the bolts), so are completely irrelevant. At least if we're going to have yet another ethics debate let's stick to the ethics of the actions taken by climbers, not the ethics of human existence in its entirety!


Eduardo Slabofvic

6-Jun-2011
11:44:11 AM

I've not done the routes in question, but if slings can be used as an anchor, could a chain and shackle be used in their stead (without bolts that is) as in the chain is slung in/around/through whatever it is that the slings are?

Some of you may remember the pile of tat in the anchor of British Beat, which was replaced with a length of chain.


garbie

6-Jun-2011
12:15:45 PM

On 6/06/2011 martym wrote:
>On 5/06/2011 king335 wrote:
>> I cant believe that you are using the "it's hard to retreat" line
>>on cornerstone as reason to bolt it. Listen to yourself. the climb is
>a
>>180m grade 14. one of the easiest climbs out there. if climbers aren't
>>competent to retreat off CR (which should only need be done if a climber
>>is injured or rained on) then they should probably climb somewhere else
>>first and gain the knowledge and experience they need to climb safley
>in
>>the bungles. (from what i could find out from NPWS no one has been killed
>>in any climbing related accidents in the nation park so far.)
>>it's not your local city crag with rescue services a short 10-30mins
>away
>>you need to be able to look after your self out there.
>
>Of course, in this emergency situation, removing the rap will make it
>that little bit harder - and when someone finally does die on CR - you
>can be sure the Newspapers will be scrutinising this forum post and questioning
>your authority to make these choices.

An Interesting point. But what the media says will inevitably be ill-informed, so what they say is in one way irrelevant to whether the action of adding the bolts or chopping was ethically correct. But media attention can have other effects like helping to get climbing banned etc, so in that way it is relevant. But I'd say media opinions should be kept out of the debate.

Not sure if you're laying a guilt trip on here martym, if someone does die? I don't think thats fair, if its ethically right to chop the bolts (not saying it is), then the chopper shouldn't be held responsible for an accident, that would be a very slippery slope for people who bolt anywhere, anytime.

GoUp!

6-Jun-2011
12:48:02 PM

Quote
'Sadly, not everyone who goes to the Bungles is as skilled as you are and sometimes they get into trouble even on one of the easiest climbs there. And, in the stress of a retreat situation, especially if there is a storm or an injury to cope with, they may not be in a position to place the most reliable pieces of backup equipment. It seems leaving the decaying piton alone is a poor legacy to a party that has a true need of a more reliable anchor.

I recommend you return and replace the necessary bolts to make the liklihood of an accident negligible.'

I strongly recommend that you and other punters get your shit together before launching out on routes in the Warrumbungles. Mate, they are seriously some of the most commiting adventure routes in Australia and make great training for alpine-style rock routes in other parts of the world. I think you should not be climbing there if you are not experienced for the gig, and if you are suitably experienced then you should be able to get off the route without the removed-anchor.
If you launch up on the route without suitable experience and have an accident I'd be thinking you'd be negligible and at fault, particularly if you know the anchor has gone - not the people removing anchors.

I'm not trying to spout elitism here but the situation is that the Warrumbungles is a more 'serious' place to climb than most other crags. Aspire to do the routes as they were put up (or in better style if possible!), not conspire to bring the routes down to your hardness and/or safety level.


nmonteith

6-Jun-2011
3:51:53 PM

On 6/06/2011 pmonks wrote:
>On 6/06/2011 nmonteith wrote:
>>When is someone going to chop all the retro staircases and handrails?
>
>WTF are you talking about Neil? The staircases and handrails weren't
>put up by climbers (unlike the bolts), so are completely irrelevant. At
>least if we're going to have yet another ethics debate let's stick to the
>ethics of the actions taken by climbers, not the ethics of human existence
>in its entirety!

I'm just making the point that the perceived adventure wilderness experience has already been eroded by much larger things since the first ascent. If i disagree with these does it give me the right to remove them?

martym

6-Jun-2011
4:20:10 PM

On 6/06/2011 garbie wrote:
>Not sure if you're laying a guilt trip on here martym, if someone does
>die? I don't think thats fair, if its ethically right to chop the bolts
>(not saying it is), then the chopper shouldn't be held responsible for
>an accident, that would be a very slippery slope for people who bolt anywhere,
>anytime.

Oh a bit - just responding to a batantly extreme post. I know (some) climbers understand the politics involved, but the general public doesn't, and now his comments are in the public record, so to speak.

>On 6/06/2011 martym wrote:
>>On 5/06/2011 king335 wrote:
>>>the bungles. (from what i could find out from NPWS no one has been killed
>>>in any climbing related accidents in the nation park so far.)
>>>it's not your local city crag with rescue services a short 10-30mins

On 6/06/2011 garbie wrote:
>is relevant. But I'd say media opinions should be kept out of the debate.
>

many consider internet forums a form of media and therefore it's a very slippery slope in deed.

ropedonkey

6-Jun-2011
6:14:21 PM

Wasn't there a death at Narrowneck Re chopped bolt/bolts and an inquest about that action?

One Day Hero

6-Jun-2011
7:31:57 PM

On 6/06/2011 ropedonkey wrote:
>Wasn't there a death at Narrowneck Re chopped bolt/bolts and an inquest
>about that action?

Yeah, and regardless of what the inquest came up with, the responsibility has to be on the individual climber to take care of their own safety. If the route was dangerous in its post-chop state, the climber should have backed off..............any other conclusion leads to external regulation and total fuching of the sport

One Day Hero

6-Jun-2011
7:38:31 PM

Regarding safety and shit in the Bungles, you can't bolt that place into a state of safety.........unless we're talking about those 12 foot bolts which they use to stabilize road cuttings! The place is a tottering pile of giant loose blocks, made from a rock which is pretty chemically reactive (hence blocks will continue to loosen and fall off until the end of time).................therefore, attempting to make the place safe and consumer friendly is utterly futile.

So you might as well keep the beard-strokers happy, cause the bumblies are up shit creek no matter what you do!

One Day Hero

6-Jun-2011
7:43:25 PM

On 6/06/2011 nmonteith wrote:
>
>I'm just making the point that the perceived adventure wilderness experience
>has already been eroded by much larger things since the first ascent. If
>i disagree with these does it give me the right to remove them?

Yes...........and as a bonus, you can use safety railing and staircase scaffolding as framing material for a kickarse woody!

There are 168 messages in this topic.