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Bolting in the Warrumbungles

One Day Hero

6-Jun-2011
9:33:25 PM

On 31/05/2011 ithomas wrote:
>I almost agree with you Andrew King, but the fact that you sound like a
>tosser is starting to make me change my mind.

Sorry to come in so late, I've been out climbing all week..............but this made me chuckle. Humzoo calling someone a tosser for their high-horsed crag ownership spray?!? Man, its almost like king335 cut and pasted directly from your 'Cloisters Edict'........is it the copyright infringement thats bothering you?

king335

6-Jun-2011
10:04:13 PM

yay finally the discussion i was hoping for. i good ethics debate is good (although a little boring) it keeps people aware of others thought/ opinions and personal ethics.

JRC- did the thought of simply replacing the piton enter your mind. pins are a great bit of kit and are much easier to inspect the quality/placment. the other nice thing is you can pull them out and place another back in the same spot without ending up with a nest of old bolts after a new one gets added every 10-20years.

"Sadly, not everyone who goes to the Bungles is as skilled as you are and sometimes they get into trouble even on one of the easiest climbs there. And, in the stress of a retreat situation, especially if there is a storm or an injury to cope with, they may not be in a position to place the most reliable pieces of backup equipment."

i would not consider myself a s"skilled" climber.
i find your assumed skill set of the average trad climber to be rather insulting. if you fear that most climbers are lacking the skills to climb safely then you should perhaps start sharing your experience and knowledge to more people. perhaps you could run a full week long climbing camp where all the "skilled" climbers could teach anyone who wishes to come along?

Martym- climbing is dangerous, thats what makes it so appealing to many climbers. to assume responsibility for other climbers is an outrages idea. all climbers are responsible for there own actions. if they make the wrong decision it is they that pay the price, not the party who made the first ascent and not the person who later added bolts/ left gear etc.

thanks mikl for the pic of all the tat. (sorry i've not got any of my own yet) you could of simply removed it. if everyone did this the messy tat thing wouldn't be an issue. i admit i am guilty of not removing old tat but i have also removed a great deal over the time.
did you mention to others that you backed up the second bolt with a length of.......TAT?

nmonteith- if you like i can round up the other bolt police to help remove the stairs. god i hate walking up those things (perhaps when they are gone we could put in an elevator, it would make the walk a hell of a lot easier)
as climbers we have little control over what NPWS does for its visitors, lets face it climbers are a minority. however we do have control over the climbs themselves. the great thing about climbing is it is a self regulating sport. thats what we are doing here, self regulating.

Eduardo- unfortunately a chain wouldn't really work. a cable might work where the second bold was but not the first. replacing the pin would be the only other real option.

does anyone know if you can actually get to the ground in a single rap from this point? it's a pitch and a halfs climbing to get there but if you went off the side maybe?


nmonteith

6-Jun-2011
10:35:23 PM

On 31/05/2011 king335 wrote:
>(yes there is still a small group of people who regulary climb in the bungles
>and are putting up new routes, ground up on gear)

Don't forget to let us know about these new routes. I believe the SRC hasn't received any descriptions? I'd hate to retrobolt something that has been done previously.

Wendy

7-Jun-2011
12:03:26 AM

On 6/06/2011 GoUp! wrote:
>I strongly recommend that you and other punters get your shit together
>before launching out on routes in the Warrumbungles. Mate, they are seriously
>some of the most commiting adventure routes in Australia and make great
>training for alpine-style rock routes in other parts of the world.

You are aware that vast numbers of otherwise completely trad protected alpine rock routes in Europe, America and Canada are equipped with rap anchors at the end of every pitch? That allowing for safe and simple retreat is really quite standard?

I haven't actually ever climbed in the Bungles, but we all know that australian climbers do get on their own high horses about aspects of ethics that the rest of the climbing world has moved on from, so referencing the rest of the world may not be a good strategy. I have climbed many many alpine routes in other countries that were well equipped for retreat. The only difference between the more modern attidude and older ones was the manky tat and pitons versus 2 bolts. The manky tat and pitons on the Grand Charmoz for example was far uglier than the bolts that were common around the Midi or the Envers.


pmonks

7-Jun-2011
1:37:53 AM

On 7/06/2011 Wendy wrote:
>You are aware that vast numbers of otherwise completely trad protected
>alpine rock routes in Europe, America and Canada are equipped with rap
>anchors at the end of every pitch? That allowing for safe and simple retreat
>is really quite standard?

I'd say that's a bit of an over-generalisation, certainly here in California. None of the alpine routes I've done here were equipped to allow easy retreat, except in cases where there's no other way off the formation (and even then the abseils are often well away from the top of any official climbing routes).

In fact I'd go so far as to say that the US in general has even stricter "ethics" than Australia does - see my earlier rants about sh1tty bolting at Joshua Tree, the Pinnacles, etc. etc. due to the low opinion of rap (abseil) bolting.

Europe is different, obviously, but then Europeans generally don't understand the concept of "wilderness", as they destroyed the last of it hundreds of years ago. I'm not sure Europe is an appropriate role model for Australia.

>I haven't actually ever climbed in the Bungles,

It's pretty unique in terms of Australian climbing, which probably explains why people are so passionate about the retrobolting. I'd suggest heading up there and checking it out for yourself, not only because it has kick-ar5e climbing, but also to get a feel for the place and perhaps gain some appreciation of why people are upset about this.

It's no drive-by roadside crag like Arapiles, that's for sure.

> but we all know that australian
>climbers do get on their own high horses about aspects of ethics that the
>rest of the climbing world has moved on from, so referencing the rest of
>the world may not be a good strategy.

Agreed, but not for the reasons I think you mean. Europe is an over-crowded, over-developed, over-manicured garden, America holds onto outmoded traditions (particularly the ground up bolting "ethic") despite clear deficiencies - Australia has an opportunity to learn from both places and do better.

martym

7-Jun-2011
2:02:47 AM

On 6/06/2011 king335 wrote:
>yay finally the discussion i was hoping for.
>
You didn't start the thread.

>Martym- climbing is dangerous, thats what makes it so appealing to many
>climbers. to assume responsibility for other climbers is an outrages idea.
I live in the Czech Republic, these guys take this notion to it's very limit.

>all climbers are responsible for there own actions. if they make the wrong
>decision it is they that pay the price, not the party who made the first
>ascent and not the person who later added bolts/ left gear etc.
Yeah, but.
Having filled out so many OHS forms, sat through so many meetings about the possibilities of the slighest problem, my feeling is that Oz is a total nanny state, and I was simply raising the point that you've put it on the record that you advocate eliminating safety measures. That's what I am getting at.

I for one was in the Bungles one Easter when it was raining intermitently. To the disappointment of my group, I refused to lead any of the big climbs because I felt the risk was too great, and wasn't keen on losing a ton of gear if we had to bail.

Wendy

7-Jun-2011
7:17:06 AM

On 7/06/2011 pmonks wrote:
>
>I'd say that's a bit of an over-generalisation, certainly here in California.
> None of the alpine routes I've done here were equipped to allow easy retreat,
>except in cases where there's no other way off the formation (and even
>then the abseils are often well away from the top of any official climbing
>routes).
>
>In fact I'd go so far as to say that the US in general has even stricter
>"ethics" than Australia does - see my earlier rants about sh1tty bolting
>at Joshua Tree, the Pinnacles, etc. etc. due to the low opinion of rap
>(abseil) bolting.
>
>Europe is different, obviously, but then Europeans generally don't understand
>the concept of "wilderness", as they destroyed the last of it hundreds
>of years ago. I'm not sure Europe is an appropriate role model for Australia.
>
>>I haven't actually ever climbed in the Bungles,
>
>It's pretty unique in terms of Australian climbing, which probably explains
>why people are so passionate about the retrobolting. I'd suggest heading
>up there and checking it out for yourself, not only because it has kick-ar5e
>climbing, but also to get a feel for the place and perhaps gain some appreciation
>of why people are upset about this.
>

I am not really even generalising, Peter, I'm just observing that many other places have bolted alpine routes for easy retreat, not necessarily most (although I could possibly get away with saying that in Europe!). I certainly did rap down routes in the Valley and Tuolomne whilst I was there too.

I'm not commenting on if these bolts are good or bad, just that it was an interesting reference to alpine rock routes around the world. I certainly didn't feel my experience of all those routes in Europe orwas diminished by the presence of rap belays. And they are definately set up to be belays as well as retreats. These bolts sound very minor additions in comparison. And really, if you can lead even Cornerstone Rib, you can set up a belay. Given that I can quite happily set a belay in a whole range of conditions and because I'm not climbing a route for the joy of setting up belays, it doesn't ruin my experience that there might be a bolt in that belay, nor if people want to wander off to the side to add it to the belay or indeed, to wander off route to clip a bolt as has also caused consternation around here of late.

>It's no drive-by roadside crag like Arapiles, that's for sure.
>
>> but we all know that australian
>>climbers do get on their own high horses about aspects of ethics that
>the
>>rest of the climbing world has moved on from, so referencing the rest
>of
>>the world may not be a good strategy.
>
>Agreed, but not for the reasons I think you mean. Europe is an over-crowded,
>over-developed, over-manicured garden, America holds onto outmoded traditions
>(particularly the ground up bolting "ethic") despite clear deficiencies
>- Australia has an opportunity to learn from both places and do better.

Sounds reasonable to me! I just thought that the reference was not necessarily supporting the argument he was making. And I'm having a rest day in the exciting city of Lexington and I have time to kill. Pity it's been the middle of the night over there and the only other person awake to entertain me is also in the US!
>

ithomas

7-Jun-2011
9:34:10 AM

I don't remember you being around at the time One Day Hero? Maybe you were but couldn't attract any attention. In any case, just because I was a tosser doesn't mean that I can't accuse someone else of being one. By the way, anyone who ticks all of the boxes in the "I climb" section of their user profile and who casually tosses off the comment that they have been "climbing all week" (heard that one before) is almost certainly a first class tosser; so really, we are intellectually related. A hint for you Cuz: do not fall into the trap of confusing the tossers of yore with the tossers of today. We were bigger, stronger, smarter, better looking and could climb while parsing a sentence. Of course now we are fat and idle but we can still hold our own.

Speaking of people with passion, I think that Wendy (who I have never met but admired from afar) gets my vote for the clearest thinking on this forum. Her comments regarding the 'bungles and Arapiles are spot on. Someone should employ her to write and comment professionally. Long may she climb and write.


Sonic

7-Jun-2011
9:51:53 AM

On 6/06/2011 king335 wrote:

>i would not consider myself a s"skilled" climber.

Then why the fork are you pulling bolts and judging who does what in the bungles? You don't seem to be a s s s skilled typist either..... ;)

One Day Hero

7-Jun-2011
10:00:05 AM

Nah Ian, I wasn't climbing in the early 70's owing to not being born yet.........kinda wish I was though, seems like it was an interesting time. Gotta admit, I've always been a bit of a fan of your work, that piece where you describe an early climbing/chopping trip to the blueys is pure gold!

Isn't it funny how all the extremists mellow out in their middle age? Andrew, take note, 'Zoo used to be such a trad fundamentalist that it makes your current efforts seem laughably tame. Check out how his views have softened in 30yrs.............it'll happen to you too!

gsharrock2007

7-Jun-2011
10:01:56 AM

Greetings Chockstones [ from a reluctant poster who has enjoyed visiting the Warrumbungles for 36 years* ]:

While I thank and applaud Mike, Neil (and others) for replacing our anchors, I don't believe we do ourselves any favors by placing unnecessary new bolts in the Warrumbungle National park.

First the Warrumbungle National Park is on the National Heritage list and I don't believe we do much for our image as custodians of the vertical environment by bolting in parks with World or National Heritage status, even if the environmental impact of bolting is perhaps trivial in most cases (and here I don't know the truth of this statement, and perhaps there are no studies on this issue?).

Second the park management plan has very specific requirements with respect to rock climbing (page 32): http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resources/parks/pomfinalwarrumbungle.pdf

•Rock climbing, abseiling and other recreational activities will continue to be prohibited on the Breadknife, Square Top Mountain and Chalkers Mountain. These activities may be prohibited or restricted in other areas if necessary for safety or environmental reasons.

•The marking of climbs and the bolting of new climbing routes will not be permitted.

•The replacement of existing bolts and abseil anchors will only be permitted on public safety grounds.

•Use of portable generators will not be permitted in the park.

I think the requests in the plan are quite reasonable and surely if we wish to continue accessing the park a good start would be sicking to the plan!

My third argument is entirely personal and relates to climbing style, and is therefore a matter of "taste" as Mike says. To me the Warrumbungles and South West Tasmania are two special places in Australia where you get an "alpine" experience, and a true sense of wilderness. For this reason I would prefer to see no new bolting, especially bolting that is unnecessary on classic routes like Cornerstone (one of my first multi-pitch climbs on which I learnt to lead in 1990! ).

On the matter of the wishes of the first ascensionist, I think the management plan and associated environmental requirements should always override rock climbing history, ethical debates and personal views.

For all of the above reasons I have no problem with the removal of the new bolts or any others that have been placed in recent times, and would ask that no more new climbs are bolted.

*20 Years of climbing visits.


Sonic

7-Jun-2011
10:05:16 AM

On 7/06/2011 gsharrock2007 wrote:
>Greetings Chockstones [ from a reluctant poster who has enjoyed visiting
>the Warrumbungles for 36 years* ]:

Thanks for resisting your reluctance ;) That was worth hearing.

One Day Hero

7-Jun-2011
10:17:23 AM

On 7/06/2011 Sonic wrote:
>
>Then why the fork are you pulling bolts and judging who does what in the
>bungles?

Hey Sonic, go fuch yourself! I really like the fact that young mr. king has the bottle to pull retrobolts placed by an older, wiser, famous, respected climber.

Climbing in australia isn't run by some patriachal fuching club (unless you stuff up and join the sydney rockies). No one has to take orders from grumbly old farts in this sport, which is pretty unique. You want some setup where people have to work their way up the social heirachy before they are allowed to have a say in what goes on? Once again, go fuch yourself.

Australian climbing needs a bit of a bolt war, I'm glad that king335 has kicked it off.......there's too many kooks now running around with 36V Panasonics and no appreciation of diversity.

Righto, I'd better go sharpen my chisel, this is gonna be fun


rodw

7-Jun-2011
10:32:41 AM

Actually I have a Dewalt 24v drill...

One Day Hero

7-Jun-2011
10:44:13 AM

I wouldn't lose sleep over it Rod, apparently most women don't really care that much about the size of your voltage..........the number of holes you can drill in a day is way more important


Sonic

7-Jun-2011
10:46:18 AM

I have a few hammers..... what do you prefer ODH, ball pein or claw?

(please note tongue in cheek)

rightarmbad

7-Jun-2011
11:04:46 AM

".there's too many kooks now running around with 36V Panasonics and no appreciation of diversity."

Agreeable quote of the year!


rodw

7-Jun-2011
11:05:09 AM

On 7/06/2011 One Day Hero wrote:
>I wouldn't lose sleep over it Rod, apparently most women don't really care
>that much about the size of your voltage..........the number of holes you
>can drill in a day is way more important

To true....Its all about the quality of the drill bit

MichaelF

7-Jun-2011
2:05:27 PM

On 7/06/2011 gsharrock2007 wrote:

>.....While I thank and applaud Mike, Neil (and others) for replacing our anchors,
>I don't believe we do ourselves any favors by placing unnecessary new bolts
>in the Warrumbungle National park.

>First the Warrumbungle National Park is on the National Heritage list
>and I don't believe we do much for our image as custodians of the vertical
>environment by bolting in parks with World or National Heritage status,.....

>Second the park management plan has very specific requirements with respect
>to rock climbing: ......
>•Rock climbing, abseiling and other recreational activities will continue
>to be prohibited on the Breadknife, Square Top Mountain and Chalkers Mountain.
>These activities may be prohibited or restricted in other areas if necessary
>for safety or environmental reasons.
>•The marking of climbs and the bolting of new climbing routes will not
>be permitted.
>•The replacement of existing bolts and abseil anchors will only be permitted
>on public safety grounds.
>•Use of portable generators will not be permitted in the park.

>I think the requests in the plan are quite reasonable and surely if we
>wish to continue accessing the park a good start would be sicking to the
>plan!
>
>My third argument is entirely personal and relates to climbing style,
>and is therefore a matter of "taste" as Mike says. To me the Warrumbungles
>and South West Tasmania are two special places in Australia where you get
>an "alpine" experience, and a true sense of wilderness. For this reason
>I would prefer to see no new bolting, especially bolting that is unnecessary
>on classic routes like Cornerstone ....

>On the matter of the wishes of the first ascensionist, I think the management
>plan and associated environmental requirements should always override rock
>climbing history, ethical debates and personal views.
>
>For all of the above reasons I have no problem with the removal of the
>new bolts or any others that have been placed in recent times, and would
>ask that no more new climbs are bolted.

gsharrock I agree with your sentiments 100%. Lets leave these places for future generations of climbers looking for trad adventure climbing in a wilderness setting (I would add Kaputar to the list for NSW).

widewetandslippery

7-Jun-2011
2:16:02 PM

On 7/06/2011 rodw wrote:
>On 7/06/2011 One Day Hero wrote:
>>I wouldn't lose sleep over it Rod, apparently most women don't really
>care
>>that much about the size of your voltage..........the number of holes
>you
>>can drill in a day is way more important
>
>To true....Its all about the quality of the drill bit

I didn't think it had anything to do with quality, it just had to be the right size and sharp.

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