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Backing up your belay loop


andyR

11-Jan-2007
2:25:09 PM

I have just returned from Araps where I have been doing my SPG training - I did my CI training and passed my assessment in 1997 but am currently 'refreshing' (anyway that's another story) - during this training we were discussing Todd Skinner's tragic fatal accident last year, when it appears his belay loop failed (refer to thread on this topic where much has been discussed already - and YES, iI have read this thread!!
Follow this link: http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=Display&ForumID=1&MessageID=40177&Replies=1
). I have been considering ways to 'back up' my belay loop and have come with the following:

- 5.5m - 6mm spectra loop (lightweight, sturdy, flexible)
- Petzl Demi Rond semi-circular maillon - Breaking strength 25kN on major axis, 10kN on minor axis

I am wondering who else backs up their belay loop and if so, what you use?

I've never bothered doing this before, but when you think about, redundancy in all your systems is a pretty damn important part of your climbing and the belay loop is a pretty damn important link. This is one system I know not too many climbers back up, so I'm intersted in what others do or think of this?

Cheers andyR


IdratherbeclimbingM9

11-Jan-2007
3:05:42 PM

http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?ForumID=1&Action=Display&MessageID=40237&PagePos=&Sort=


cruxmag

11-Jan-2007
3:07:42 PM

On 11/01/2007 andyR wrote:
>- 5.5m - 6mm spectra loop (lightweight, sturdy, flexible)

Thats what i use. It also doubles as an emergency prussic if required!


dougal

11-Jan-2007
3:24:08 PM

Redundancy is a great guide as is simplicity. The most recent ROCKandICE has an article about the incident. Two points to note: the party (skinner and his partner) were both aware of the state of the belay loop (and the entire harness) before the accident. Skinner apparently had the habit of girth hitching his daisies through the belay loop and not through both the leg and waist loops. This habit plus the heavy use by Skinner led to the freakishly bad state of the loop. The article reiterated that belay loops should be used for belay or rappel.

Skinner should have retired the harness or replaced the loop which is likely what he was thinking on the way down.

IMO backing up the loop is like using double ropes because the rope you usually use is so frayed that you're are concerned it wont hold the next fall. Inspect your gear regularly and keep things simple.


skink

11-Jan-2007
3:38:25 PM

I have thought of backing up my loop, but after a bit of research decided that as long as it is in decent shape, it is way strong, probably stronger than my belay biner, so why bother - it adds complexity.

Once you have backed up your belay loop, then what is next - backup belay/rap biner?

When I rap I often attach a prussik directly to my legloops/waistbelt, so if the belay loop 'Todd Skinner's on me, I've got that as a backup.


nmonteith

11-Jan-2007
3:51:48 PM

On 11/01/2007 andesite wrote:
>I have thought of backing up my loop, but after a bit of research decided
>that as long as it is in decent shape, it is way strong, probably stronger
>than my belay biner, so why bother - it adds complexity.

Nylon can get cut easily by sharp edges and hot items (drillbit, stove, belay device etc). Biners don't get
cut.


skink

11-Jan-2007
4:00:39 PM

On 11/01/2007 nmonteith wrote:

>Nylon can get cut easily by sharp edges and hot items (drillbit, stove,
>belay device etc). Biners don't get
>cut.

I agree - but how is that relevant to backing up your belay loop?


nmonteith

11-Jan-2007
4:09:56 PM

On 11/01/2007 andesite wrote:
>I agree - but how is that relevant to backing up your belay loop?

errr it can get cut by all these things when you are attached to it

drill-bit - when bolting
stove - when on a portaledge
belay-device - when finished a high speed/long rap


skink

11-Jan-2007
4:24:53 PM

On 11/01/2007 nmonteith wrote:

>errr it can get cut by all these things when you are attached to it
>
>drill-bit - when bolting
>stove - when on a portaledge
>belay-device - when finished a high speed/long rap
>

So sure, back it up when you are doing something exotic (plus be extra careful with those hot bits, there is a lotta nylon out there besides your belay loop) - I have never bolted, used a stove on a porta-ledge or rapped so hard that my belay-device is smokin', so why back it up for normal use? I think that is the question at hand - do you back up for normal use?


nmonteith

11-Jan-2007
4:35:41 PM

Its always there and i always use it. I like the feeling of security it gives. Its a bit like when you start
using a gri-gri all the time for belaying/absieling- you begin to wonder how to trusted a normal belay
device!


muki

11-Jan-2007
4:40:39 PM

On 11/01/2007 andesite wrote:
so why bother - it adds complexity.
?
I have used a tubular webing as my backup for my harnesses for about nine years.
But the advantages are many not just redundancy.
This was originaly for easy rescue change overs, escaping the belay,and rescue off rope for assisted
rappel.
The webing is only slightly longer than the belay loop itself and does'nt get in the way at all, it just
covers the original loop, and the tape knot (sewn shut) rides in behind, not complex at all! most people
dont notice it even when checking my tie in.
My kids get a steel d malion on their harnesses and I connect them on gri gri's, one rope each, letting
them counter balance rappel together, one under one over, so I can rappel on doubles first, and bottom
brake for them.
The steely cannot be cross loaded or undone by them before they reach the ground, and I undo it for
them, this gives me confidence to leave them unatended at the top while I head down, they love the
big rappel off the pharos.
This has been a system that many other climbers have adopted after seeing mine and learning all the
different uses and benifits it has.


gordoste

11-Jan-2007
4:43:48 PM

On 11/01/2007 dougal wrote:
>Skinner should have retired the harness or replaced the loop which is
>likely what he was thinking on the way down.

this is in bad taste imho.

anyway to answer the original post, personally i agree with above posters that you just need to make sure you regularly check for wear and retire gear when necessary


Eduardo Slabofvic

11-Jan-2007
4:47:30 PM

Back in my day, harnesses didn't have belay loops, so I never developed the behaviour to use them. The
harness I have now has a belay loop but the only role it has is to keep the leg loops attached at the front
(a rubber band would suffice for this purpose).

I have a daisy chain permanently larks footed around waist belt and leg loops to attach to belays, and
whilst rapping and belaying I use a separate locking biner through waist belt and leg loop. The reason I
don’t use the belay loop is because it feels wrong. If you learnt to climb using a belay loop it probably
feels right, what ever floats your pontoon.


Phil Box

11-Jan-2007
5:47:13 PM

I got a harness built which has two belay loops at the front and one at the back. All other attachment points such as gear loops are also rated to 1100 kilos. When in doubt as to the efficacy of my belay loops I will go to a D mallion for connection through the harness waist and legloops directly. I use the D for my chest ascender and for my Gri Gri when rope soloing sometimes. Other than that I will simply use the belay loop. It is there for a reson and no manufacturer ever recommends not useing it. It ensures that the harness orientates itself correctly. It is THE strongest part of the harness. No instructor should ever teach incorrect useage of the belay loop as it would then leave them open to being sued.


dougal

11-Jan-2007
5:54:13 PM

No bad taste intended gordoste. I wont speculate on exactly what his last thoughts were but they may very well have been those and I imagine he's there now looking down and telling everyone not to ignore their better judgement.

maxdacat

11-Jan-2007
8:20:39 PM

On 11/01/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>Its always there and i always use it. I like the feeling of security it
>gives. Its a bit like when you start
>using a gri-gri all the time for belaying/absieling- you begin to wonder
>how to trusted a normal belay
>device!

even for trad and even rapping on double ropes...i'm intrigued?


nmonteith

11-Jan-2007
10:03:59 PM

On 11/01/2007 maxdacat wrote:
>even for trad and even rapping on double ropes...i'm intrigued?

Yes! If i can simul rap with two people on gri-gris i will. If i can fixed one end and rap off and let the
second person rap on a stitch plate i will. I hate the non-autolockers these days!

dalai

11-Jan-2007
10:12:56 PM

As long as the abseil anchor allows the rope to be doubled and threaded through you can also use the plaited knot (don't know the name, but it works!) to abseil on the one strand. Then on the ground, pull the non abseil end and alternate pulling each end to unravel the plait till the rope drops...

Also works well if abseiling off a bollard. Instead of running the completely around the bollard and having to drag the the whole length of the rope around the bollard to get it down. Loop the doubled middle of the rope around the bollard, plait, abseil on the one strand. Unplait from the ground and the rope comes down easily!


nmonteith

11-Jan-2007
10:43:10 PM

I have no idea what you are talking about dalai! Any links to pictures? I don't quite understand what you
are describing.

dalai

11-Jan-2007
10:47:45 PM

I didn't think it would be understandable as it's impossible to describe and I wasn't told a name. So I wouldn't know where to start to search for pictures. I will have to show you one day!

I was shown this in person once years ago, practiced a fair bit and finally started using it!

Was a pretty scary abseil that first time...

Edit: But it is an easy way to abseil with a gri gri on a single strand.

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