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Pas danger

bigchris

15-Jun-2013
3:56:09 PM

I know this is not in english, but had no idea of the danger when clipping in this way. I think i'll go and buy a Metolius pas daisy that has every loop rated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWSk6tAUNcU

Miguel75

15-Jun-2013
4:02:57 PM

Here's the video and associated info from BD. Unfortunately I couldn't find the info on the BD QC page...

QC Lab: Daisy chain dangers from Black Diamond Equipment on Vimeo.

"First, lets be clear: daisy chains are for aid climbing NOT for use as part of your personal anchor system. Don’t know how to properly anchor yourself using the rope? Don't know how to thread sport anchors without using a daisy chain? Get some instruction from a professional guide before you get yourself hurt.

Second, and regarding this video, if you incorrectly clip in short to a daisy while aid climbing, it can be potentially bad. Very bad. The thing to remember when clipping in short using a daisy is to use a SECOND carabiner to shorten it up, thus avoiding the potential loading scenario above".

To read Black Diamond's full QC Lab report on daisy chain dangers, go to: http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb/all/qc-lab-daisy-chain-dangers-en-glbl-en-us

EDIT: everything above, aside from the intro is from BD's QC site. My contribution is;

I like the PAS as every loop is full strength.

Miguel75

15-Jun-2013
6:52:41 PM

On 15/06/2013 Cliff wrote:
>On 15/06/2013 Miguel75 wrote: First, ... daisy chains are ... NOT for use
>as part of your personal anchor system.
>
>I see where you are coming from, but what's wrong with using it to connect
>yourself to an anchor, particularly where each loop has a high rating.
>Otherwise, the major problem is the lack of stretch of a daisy and the
>resultant forces in the event of a fall. But attaching a daisy to an anchor
>to belay a persons seconding a pitch would likely be fine.

The info under the video was from BD, included in the embed code. I've always used the rope or a PAS as my attachment point.

I had an interesting experience not long after seeing the above clip. I was climbing "Serpent" with another party climbing alongside on "The Bishop". The second arrived at the 1st belay, (on The Bishop) clipped in and then untied the rope (which was confirmed to us when we arrived to help). The leader then climbed to the top and pulled all of the rope up, unaware the second wasn't tied in, before the second fully realized she wasn't tied in. Said second didn't sound too excited about the situation so we climbed up to her and I then saw she was clipped into the anchor the funky way, with a biner through two pockets, and was standing above her clip in point. Fair enough the 1st belay ledge on "the Bishop" is pretty comfy but I reckon if she slipped and fell she could have blown the pocket...

Anyways, no one died, everyone reached the top and life was grand;)

rightarmbad

15-Jun-2013
9:36:18 PM

I like daisy chains.
Seeing them hanging on a climbers harness is an easy way of knowing whether or not to climb with them.

See daisy, run the other way.

Macciza

16-Jun-2013
12:16:02 AM

On 15/06/2013 rightarmbad wrote:
>I like daisy chains.
>Seeing them hanging on a climbers harness is an easy way of knowing whether
>or not to climb with them.
>See daisy, run the other way.

I find these reasonings ridiculously naive . . .
The problem is not in the equipment per se but in the operators use of it . . .
Daisy's have been used by climbers for ages with knowledge of there issues without too much problem
Then spurt-safe idiots started doing silly things with them and had obvious problems of there own making, and others copied them, then others started sayings how dodgy it all is and others copied that!
So other uber-safer things got made, which idiots will continue to do silly things with and expose themselves and their gear to extreme loadings because they are 'safe' and so it will continue . . .
Learn and know the performance parameters of your gear and how to use it safely . . . .
Avoid simplistic things like only climbing with people who use a PAS, they may be even more dangerous then simply using a daisy .. . .

rightarmbad

16-Jun-2013
1:31:47 AM

The problem is that the people that typically use daisies are usually the ones not aware of the dangers present when used incorrectly.
I don't believe that there is any legitimate use for daisies in everyday climbing.

In some circumstances they are useful and when dug out of the pack because there may be a reason to use it is fine.
But a daisy that just lives on a harness signify's to me, that this person does simply not know how to use everyday equipment to do the myriad of everyday climbing needs, and is using it because of a lack of skill or knowledge.

I don't know of a single regular climbing activity that a daisy will perform better than the general stuff already hanging on my harness.

They simply have no place in most day to day climbing and only introduce added danger.

I can see uses for a PAS, but I don't own or use one.
As a beginner I did think that both of these things would be great, but only because it would hide or gloss over my inability to do things properly with the simple tools always carried.

IdratherbeclimbingM9

16-Jun-2013
2:48:44 PM

On 16/06/2013 rightarmbad wrote:
>The problem is that the people that typically use daisies are usually the
>ones not aware of the dangers present when used incorrectly.
>I don't believe that there is any legitimate use for daisies in everyday
>climbing.
>
>In some circumstances they are useful and when dug out of the pack because
>there may be a reason to use it is fine.
>But a daisy that just lives on a harness signify's to me, that this person
>does simply not know how to use everyday equipment to do the myriad of
>everyday climbing needs, and is using it because of a lack of skill or
>knowledge.
>
>I don't know of a single regular climbing activity that a daisy will perform
>better than the general stuff already hanging on my harness.
>
>They simply have no place in most day to day climbing and only introduce
>added danger.
>
>I can see uses for a PAS, but I don't own or use one.
>As a beginner I did think that both of these things would be great, but
>only because it would hide or gloss over my inability to do things properly
>with the simple tools always carried.

Each to their own.
Maybe this is a hangover from days of olde when I used to use a cows-tail in technical speleology? ...; however I now have a daisy almost permanently on my 'free-climbing' harness, as I found the convenience of using them in aid climbing so great, that I allowed one to cross over into my free climbing setup...

You may be horrified to know that I introduce quite a few beginner climbers to the game, and have adopted the same tactic of putting a daisy (with 2 krabs for shortening purposes), on their harness(!), as it is an easy way for me of ensuring they are clipped tight to a cordelette belay when I bring them up as seconds, without the faffing around of incorporating the rope into the belay. This frees up the rope to be set for abseiling off, or a rope stretcher next pitch, while still ensuring they are secured to the belay.

In fact I love them so much that I have an extra dedicated to my day pack for convenience of organising it on multipitch belays, and even the ground for that matter; ... you know, those places where the base of a climb is on jumbled blocks and anything dropped gets lost down a crevice! This is aside from those I have dedicated to my aid climbing setup, haulbag/s, and portaledge.

In fact when technogeekery ~~currently~~(edit; now sold), advertised another for $10, I am was sorely tempted to get it for organisational purposes when packing the motorbike!
;-)

I don't believe they are dangerous per se, and like Macca, reckon an educated user of them will find the convenience offsets that perceived risk.
I do agree with you in that it is yet another bit of gear carried, and there is a case for simpler is better.

On 15/06/2013 rightarmbad wrote:
>I like daisy chains.
>Seeing them hanging on a climbers harness is an easy way of knowing whether
>or not to climb with them.
>
>See daisy, run the other way.

Do you use a chalk bag?
Does your rack consist of dogbone draws only?
Do you climb in lycra?
Do you take your dog to the cliffs?
Do you wear a 'dangerouser cliffs' T-shirt?
Do you climb without a helmet?
Do you believe most of what xxxx posts on Chockstone is-?
etc.

Each to their own.
~> Plenty of reasons to run the other way out there!
Heh, heh, heh.

Eduardo Slabofvic

16-Jun-2013
3:46:27 PM

On 16/06/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>I now have a daisy almost permanently
>on my 'free-climbing' harness, as I found the convenience of using them
>in aid climbing so great, that I allowed one to cross over into my free
>climbing setup...
>

Make that 2 of us. Also, can someone explain how I'm going to create a shock load on the daisy chain once I've clipped tight into the anchor?

Miguel75

16-Jun-2013
5:04:38 PM

On 16/06/2013 Edward Oslabofvic wrote:
>Make that 2 of us. Also, can someone explain how I'm going to create
>a shock load on the daisy chain once I've clipped tight into the anchor?

If you clipped in and then moved above your anchor and fell!?

Eduardo Slabofvic

16-Jun-2013
7:45:09 PM

Why, the smeg, would I do that? I've managed to not do that for the last 30 years, and can probably manage not to do it for the next 30 years as well. After that, who cares.

Eduardo Slabofvic

16-Jun-2013
7:57:49 PM

On 16/06/2013 Cliff wrote:
>If the ledge you were standing on fractures off the cliff

That's not going to shock load the daisy chain, cause I hang on the daisy chain, so I can look over the edge of the ledge.

>space debris
>lands on you,
Neither is that.

>the peyote you took 10 years ago causes a flashback and you
>throw yourself off the cliff.
Granted, that could happen, but still would not shock load the daisy chain.

I mean, that video is in the same league as the "don't tie in with a bowline cause you'll die" argument. It basically says, use the daisy chain wrong and you could die.

That is exactly correct, use the daisy chain wrong and you could die. The way I use a daisy chain means even if, by some freak of nature, I shock load the daisy chain and all the loops fail, the bar-tack is always the Jesus piece, so it would just act like a screamer.

I've got some shocking news for you all, so you had better sit down.

Use a car wrong and you could die. So no one should use a car.

Use a chainsaw wrong and you could die. So no one should use a chain saw.

Use an atom bomb wrong and you could die. So no one should use an atom bomb.

Maybe BD should do another instructional video on demonstrating the wrongfulness of stuffing your haul sack full of live rattle snakes.

Whereas, I will do an instructional video on how to incorporate a sky-hook with a daisy chain for hang dogging (what you youngsters call "projecting").

IdratherbeclimbingM9

17-Jun-2013
10:05:04 AM

On 16/06/2013 Cliff wrote:
>(snip) Some argue that bc daisies are of static material, a lead fall may cause it to fail.

The cheaper nylon daisies are not static, though the more modern spectra ones are...

Back when cows tails were used (usually a short length of lead rope), if adverse circumstances occurred then I imagine the amount of stretch involved in such short lengths, would be minimal also.

I am unaware of any documented deaths attributed to failure of any of the various types, when used correctly.

ajfclark

17-Jun-2013
10:12:11 AM

On 15/06/2013 Miguel75 wrote:
>Here's the video and associated info from BD. Unfortunately I couldn't
>find the info on the BD QC page...

I can't find any of the ones linked to from Google at the moment... Sadly they seem to have removed that entire section in their last web site refresh. :-(

Even using their search only comes up with 10 articles: http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/on/demandware.store/Sites-BlackDiamond-Site/default/Search-ShowContent?q=qc%20lab

Here's the cached google version: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:lSRCqwKlAuoJ:www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb//qc-lab-daisy-chain-dangers-en-glbl-en-us+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au but it's missing all the pictures which makes it less than useful.

[edit: Wow. Have a look at their robots.txt file: http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/robots.txt

I totally don't want any search engines crawling my website to index it... That'd help people find my products and stuff and prevent stale links showing up in search engines... ]

One Day Hero

17-Jun-2013
11:44:07 AM

On 16/06/2013 Edward Oslabofvic wrote:

> The way I use a daisy chain means even if, by some freak of nature, I
>shock load the daisy chain and all the loops fail, the bar-tack is always
>the Jesus piece, so it would just act like a screamer.

I went climbing with Edward Oslabofvic once. He didn't use a daisy chain. Obviously he's just trolling here.

On the other hand, he did get super obsessive about how the nuts are racked! Can't have them divided onto 3 biners (big, medium, and small), oh no, must be on two biners, the nuts go on two biners, have to have nuts on two biners, Qantas!

IdratherbeclimbingM9

17-Jun-2013
12:11:09 PM

On 17/06/2013 One Day Hero wrote:
>I went climbing with Edward Oslabofvic once. He didn't use a daisy chain.
>Obviously he's just trolling here.
>
Eduard Oslabofvic, Edward Oslabofvic, Eduardo Slabovic, or-

Which one?
;-)

On 16/06/2013 Edward Oslabofvic wrote:
>the bar-tack is always the Jesus piece, so it would just act like a screamer.

... & that is one of the advantages of the recommended two krab method of shortening them!

tskinner

17-Jun-2013
12:40:48 PM

On 17/06/2013 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 16/06/2013 Edward Oslabofvic wrote:
>
>> The way I use a daisy chain means even if, by some freak of nature,
>I
>>shock load the daisy chain and all the loops fail, the bar-tack is always
>>the Jesus piece, so it would just act like a screamer.
>
>I went climbing with Edward Oslabofvic once. He didn't use a daisy chain.
>Obviously he's just trolling here.
>
>On the other hand, he did get super obsessive about how the nuts are racked!
>Can't have them divided onto 3 biners (big, medium, and small), oh no,
>must be on two biners, the nuts go on two biners, have to have nuts on
>two biners, Qantas!
Hate to think what happened when you didn't reach the belay in time for cheese balls..

Duang Daunk

17-Jun-2013
3:17:31 PM

On 17/06/2013 tskinner wrote:
>Hate to think what happened when you didn't reach the belay in time for cheese balls..
He screamed, but that is nothing compared to when he found his camelback full of martini had developed a leak.

There are 17 messages in this topic.