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Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 23
Author
Near Miss - Abseiling on knot-tail of ropes.
jakob
31-Jan-2016
10:56:34 PM
So I had a close call the other day. I was abseiling off of Mammoth Ledges in Yosemite after a failed solo attempt on triple direct. I'd been on the wall a couple days so was pretty tired, the abseiling was traversing, it was hot and I had a haul bag underslung. I knew i was in the danger zone for fatigue, so was double checking everything, but came pretty close to abseiling off my rope.

I had two lines joined with an overhand knot (euro death knot). I use this knot all the time, and especially prefer it if i'm pulling lines on a multipitch, not good if your lines get stuck solo 10 pitches up. I was using an extended atc and a prussik on the brake. I had a drama however when on one of the abseils, the ropes didn't make it all the way down to the next belay on a sloping ledge. I was about 5 metres short. So after some consideration, I docked my haulbag on a nut, then jumared up the double ropes back to a 1/4 inch bolt I had seen a bit further up. I backed up the bolt with a bomber nut. It was here that I staged a belay, pulled the ropes and then set up to keep on abseiling, with a plan to pick up my haulbag on the way back down. I would obviously leave the nut and binas at this belay.

It was at this point I did something a bit different. Because I was now abseiling without my bag, and because there was a visible ledge 10m underneath me (albeit still 100m up from the ground), I decided to abseil without the prussik. I quite often abseil without a prussik, but my rule is that I use a prussik when cleaning trad, or whenever something is a bit complicated. This next abseil seemed straightforward and short, and to be honest I was pretty keen to get off the nut/ 1/4 inch bolt and get back to the 3/8 inchers! All the previous ones however I used a prussik.

I started rigging for abseil, but when I configured my ATC, the tails were so long that I mistakenly put one of the tails through the ATC. The second line I got correct. At this point I took up my weight on the ATC to functionally test the system as I always do, which worked successfully. I then took off my safety. Before starting my abseil I went through and did a visual check of everything and luckily caught that I had about 6 inches of line underneath my brake hand which ended!!! I realised instantly what I had done wrong, pooed myself a little, then threw that safety back on and tried again.

LESSONS LEARNED

The first lesson I have learned is that when tying two ropes together, you must not have the tails any longer than 1 foot. The tails must not be long enough to put through an ATC. Tests various show that even the worst knot will only have about 1inch of tail slip through into the knot. To me, 12 inches is a good tail length.

The second lesson I have learned is that prussiks are a pretty damn good defence against abseiling off the rope. If I had a prussik and my brake hand felt the rope slip through, I possibly would have caught it with my prussik hand, letting the prussik do its job. Without a prussik there's less opportunity to catch it. * I did have knots in the end of the main lines, though in this situation it wouldn't have helped me.

The third lesson I already knew, and that is that being tired can really cause lapses. You need a routine to catch yourself when this happens. The final visual check really saved me here.

This was a near miss I'd rather not repeat. Be safe out there!
Dr Nick
1-Feb-2016
7:46:37 AM
On 31/01/2016 jakob wrote:

>The second lesson I have learned is that prussiks are a pretty damn good
>defence against abseiling off the rope. If I had a prussik and my brake
>hand felt the rope slip through, I possibly would have caught it with my
>prussik hand, letting the prussik do its job. Without a prussik there's
>less opportunity to catch it. * I did have knots in the end of the main
>lines, though in this situation it wouldn't have helped me.

I have a vague memory that someone (Petzl?) tested this and found that most of the time the prusik (or shunt, or whatever) will be off the end of the rope before you realise bad things are happening. While it's not necessarily a bad thing to use, it may be lulling you into a false sense of security. Were you going to make a similar comment as a footnote with the asterisk there?

The lesson you glossed over is the one that I think is more important - your routine has to include at least a double check, and this gets more critical the longer you've been climbing - just cause you didn't stuff up in the last 10+ years doesn't make you infallible.

Glad you're OK, and thanks for sharing a way of stuffing up I hadn't heard before.
mikllaw
1-Feb-2016
2:00:06 PM
A friend of mine was out with a relative novice on a multipitch abseil and clipped into both the (long) tails of the EDK, and was only stopped by the novice saying "Are you really going to abseil on that?"

yes, 30cm long tails please
patto
1-Feb-2016
3:10:17 PM
For peace of mind about knot rolling I normally do two snug EDKs. My tails are shortish, probably about 30cm..

(I don't believe a second EDK makes much difference in chance of getting rope stuck, which is about the only disadvantage to doing this.)
jakob
2-Feb-2016
10:56:02 PM
Yeah I do this every now and again too. It does give piece of mind.
jdb
3-Feb-2016
8:19:02 AM
If I can't get a visual on my abseiling rope(s), I always tie a knot near the end(s), it works for me.

rodw
3-Feb-2016
8:24:15 AM
I do it every time, just so its a default action..literally takes a couple of seconds so why not
Dave_S
3-Feb-2016
9:57:10 AM
Tying knots in the ends of the rope is a completely different issue to the risk of accidentally putting the tails of knot used to join two ropes into your rappel device.
gfdonc
3-Feb-2016
9:59:59 AM
I can't help but point out that the two tails on a double fisherman's are not next to each other, thus avoiding the problem.
kieranl
3-Feb-2016
10:26:54 AM
On 3/02/2016 gfdonc wrote:
>I can't help but point out that the two tails on a double fisherman's are
>not next to each other, thus avoiding the problem.
>
That's not a solution to the problem the OP encountered. He clipped one of the tails and one of the correct ones. That should actually be harder to do with an overhand (can people please stop using that stupid EDK name) than a DF as the tails exit the knot on the opposite side to the live lines while the DF has one tail exiting in the same direction as the live lines.

On the other hand, it's more likely that the DF will normally be tied with shorter tails than the Overhand because the DF is the more secure knot, so less likely to have the problem. Sensible length tails whatever the knot you prefer is the solution.

Just goes to show how easy it is to get it wrong, especially when you're tired.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
3-Feb-2016
10:37:21 AM
On 3/02/2016 Dave_S wrote:
>Tying knots in the ends of the rope is a completely different issue to
>the risk of accidentally putting the tails of knot used to join two ropes
>into your rappel device.

True, (and I also recognised the thread drift), but in this case if those same tails had end knots*, it might have helped the original poster in the event of failing to pick (during his last checking), the mistake he made...
Heh, heh, heh.

(*Have never heard of that being done, and it would be an unlikely enacted overkill-practice).
Old_man
3-Feb-2016
12:08:36 PM
> still 100m up from the ground

There may also be a 'bottom of big wall' factor when the ground seems so close compared to what's above that there's no danger. Once coming down off a ledge about 100m up El Cap, we abseiled down an old fixed rope with half its mantel gone and furry insides hanging out, because there didn't seem far to go. Afterwards you shake your head and say, 'Did I really do that?'
PeterW
3-Feb-2016
12:51:38 PM
On 3/02/2016 Old_man wrote:
>Afterwards you shake your head and say, 'Did I really do that?'

Early in my career in 1972, I survived abseiling off a skyhook at Hanging Rock. Now *that's* a 'Did I really do that?' moment if ever there was one!
jdb
3-Feb-2016
2:14:30 PM
On 3/02/2016 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 3/02/2016 Dave_S wrote:
>>Tying knots in the ends of the rope is a completely different issue to
>>the risk of accidentally putting the tails of knot used to join two ropes
>>into your rappel device.
>
>True, (and I also recognised the thread drift), but in this case if those
>same tails had end knots*, it might have helped the original poster in
>the event of failing to pick (during his last checking), the mistake he
>made...

That's what I was eluding too, M9.....Heh, heh, heh.

kieranl
3-Feb-2016
3:37:00 PM
Back to the OP : if he had attached a prusik and not noticed that he'd clipped into a tail, what are the chances that the prusik would have caught before the rope-end wizzed through it? My guess is "very slim". Has anyone actually tested this?
I've always worked on the assumption that if the rope-end has whipped through your hand then you are toast unless you've tied knots in the rope-ends.
Jakob
3-Feb-2016
4:50:30 PM
With an extended abseil I think you may have a chance to tighten your prussik hand up as it is on the rope. I think there's buckleys that the prussik itself would actually hold. It'd be an interesting experiment whilst on a top belay!
Jakob
3-Feb-2016
4:55:37 PM
On 3/02/2016 Old_man wrote:
>> still 100m up from the ground
>
>There may also be a 'bottom of big wall' factor when the ground seems
>so close compared to what's above that there's no danger. Once coming down
>off a ledge about 100m up El Cap, we abseiled down an old fixed rope with
>half its mantel gone and furry insides hanging out, because there didn't
>seem far to go. Afterwards you shake your head and say, 'Did I really do
>that?'

I do know what you mean, I think in your story you may have been talking about the fixed lines coming down off mammoth ledges, you can certainly get bottom of big wall factor their, its quite deceiving how high you are!

In this instance, I was definitely on edge as I was praying that my ropes didn't get caught as I pulled them down the heavily traversing rap line, whilst also looking at the 1/4 inch bolt and the nut I was on. There was scant gear around, I felt safe, but still, anxiety levels were slightly elevated. Fun times!

I like the solution of tieing stoppers in the end of my tails from now on ;)
Dr Nick
4-Feb-2016
8:51:44 AM
That's the concept I mentioned way up there. I'm sure I remember reading a study which involved deliberately abseiling off the end of the rope above mats, or possibly with a separate belay. I don't think anyone managed to stop themselves with any practical security device.

The rough equivalent would be the ruler drop test. With practice you can often catch a ruler you're expecting to drop after it's fallen about 15-20 cm. With distractions, etc. you won't catch it. 30cm is about the maximum practical length of a safety backup that can be released.
gfdonc
4-Feb-2016
9:24:08 AM
I know it's been mentioned before, but worth mentioning: I used to tie a figure-8 as a stopper knot in the ends of my ropes, until one day when, whipped by the wind, the knot untied itself.
I now tie a proper stopper knot (half a double-fishermans).
I think I recall others having the same experience.
Jakob
4-Feb-2016
7:09:54 PM
Definitely agree with the stopper knot being used as the stopper as opposed to a figure eight or overhand. I'd also feel comfortable with an overhand on the bite.

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There are 23 messages in this topic.

 

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