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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

 Page 1 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 46
Area Location Sub Location Crag Links
All NSW (General) (General) (General)  

Author
Classic 'no-star' routes at Point Perp

nmonteith
27-Oct-2014
8:12:02 AM
I've previously whined about the 'new' guidebook's star allocation - and I'll continue to do so. Their distribution of stars is petty schizophrenic and they use the 'cobweb' symbol all too often. The cobweb symbol is to show that a route is unloved (and doesn't get any traffic) - but it's a catch 22, if you tell people it is cobwebby and unloved - the route will continue to stay that way! There are a lot of routes in the old guidebook that got rave reviews, but the new guidebook gives them no stars and the cobwebby. Usually for quite minor infractions that can easily be fixed like bolt quality.

So I want to open this topic up for people to share their favorite 'no-star' routes at Point Perp!

nmonteith
27-Oct-2014
8:18:18 AM
I'll start the ball rolling with two routes on the far left end of Windjammer Wall, just around the corner from the classic arete of Turning the Tide.

Sunset Boulevard (24)
Awesome sustained wall climbing on great quality polished rock. All ringbolts, but they are spaced and rather exciting, but falls are clean. This route has no boring juggy choss lower section - it's on from the first move all the way to the top of the cliff. It's probably a sandbag at 24 - I've done all the other 24s on Windjammer in 1 or two shots but this took me a lot more! A real classic. Three stars.

Vertical Romance (25)
Even better than Sunset Boulevard? Amazing layback flake to start then unrelenting steep wall with lots of really funky moves around bulges. This climbs more like a Nowra route in many ways - again there is no boring juggy choss section and no ledges or major rests. Very sustained and the two cruxes are tough. All ringbolts again and fairly spicy bolting up high. This is probably the best 'hard route' I have tried at Point Perp. Three stars.

Both these routes get no stars and a cobwebby in the guide. WTF?

Doug
27-Oct-2014
9:07:57 AM
I like the idea of this thread, Neil. Been to PP twice and loved it, looking forward to my next visit, whenever that may be.
The climbs you mentioned so far are way too hard for me but there are probably some in the 18 - 20 range that fit your logic. Can you think of any so I can annotate my guid book?
simey
27-Oct-2014
9:32:39 AM
I reckon previous Point Perp guides were shithouse when it came to allocating stars. They threw stars around like confetti on some pretty dubious routes. The current guide is infinitely better.

I am also aware that people's experience on a climb is highly influenced by their perception beforehand. Therefore when you jump on a route with no stars, it doesn't take much for you to be pleasantly surprised and think the climb is okay. But if you jumped on the same climb after reading it had three stars in the guidebook, you might top out thinking that the climb was pretty bloody average!

I'm pretty dubious Neil that you suddenly reckon these no-star routes are three star mega-classics. I will be intrigued to hear what other people reckon.

Snacks
27-Oct-2014
9:54:27 AM
On 27/10/2014 nmonteith wrote:
>I'll start the ball rolling with two routes on the far left end of Windjammer
>Wall, just around the corner from the classic arete of Turning the Tide.
>
>Vertical Romance (25)
>Even better than Sunset Boulevard? Amazing layback flake to start then
>unrelenting steep wall with lots of really funky moves around bulges. This
>climbs more like a Nowra route in many ways - again there is no boring
>juggy choss section and no ledges or major rests. Very sustained and the
>two cruxes are tough. All ringbolts again and fairly spicy bolting up high.
>This is probably the best 'hard route' I have tried at Point Perp. Three
>stars.
>
>Both these routes get no stars and a cobwebby in the guide. WTF?
>

Spot on summary of that route Neil. It reminded me of the Belgian Tourist wall at the Grotto. Obviously a little bit sandier but I think the moves are more interesting.

nmonteith
27-Oct-2014
10:00:10 AM
On 27/10/2014 simey wrote:
>I reckon previous Point Perp guides were shithouse when it came to allocating
>stars. They threw stars around like confetti on some pretty dubious routes.
>The current guide is infinitely better.

The old guidebook did not have a star rating system Simey! So, I'm not sure what you mean by they threw them around like confetti???

You had to read the route description to judge a route's quality - and it seems many of the routes with really positives descriptions in the old guidebook are now relegated to zero-star and the cobweb symbol. For example I made a long list of quality sounding routes I wanted to do when I was using the old guidebook, and I have slowly been working my way through these routes - but occasionally I discover in the new guidebook they are written off as zero stars.

>I am also aware that people's experience on a climb is highly influenced
>by their perception beforehand. Therefore when you jump on a route with
>no stars, it doesn't take much for you to be pleasantly surprised and think
>the climb is okay. But if you jumped on the same climb after reading it
>had three stars in the guidebook, you might top out thinking that the climb
>was pretty bloody average!

That's a good point. But in this case I had tried the routes before the new guidebook came out after hearing Duncan rave about them.

>I'm pretty dubious Neil that you suddenly reckon these no-star routes
>are three star mega-classics. I will be intrigued to hear what other people
>reckon.

Using thecrag.com as a judge it seems very experienced climbers also think they are pretty awesome routes. These particular routes are actually newer climbs - done around 2010. I just don't think the guidebook authors must have done them, because if they did they wouldn't have given them zero stars.

Maybe three stars is an exaggeration as their location isn't the jaw dropping exposure of other routes. But comparing them to other multi-starred routes at the same cliff they are equal - if not better for sure. Especially if you like sustained climbing rather than one move wonders after grade 19 jugfests which is typical of Point Perp hard routes.

nmonteith
27-Oct-2014
10:04:04 AM
p.s. Point Perp isn't Arapiles - so when I say three star I am judging the quality relative to others routes at Point Perp. Loose rock, sandy slopers, dodgy bolts are par for the course.

nmonteith
27-Oct-2014
10:06:55 AM
On 27/10/2014 Doug wrote:
>I like the idea of this thread, Neil. Been to PP twice and loved it, looking
>forward to my next visit, whenever that may be.
>The climbs you mentioned so far are way too hard for me but there are
>probably some in the 18 - 20 range that fit your logic. Can you think of
>any so I can annotate my guid book?

You'll have to wait until I get home and look in my guidebook Doug! One route I did on the weekend was fun and ultra convenient. Shrapnel in my Backyard (21). All bolts apart from one cam and some great pockets. It's right under the Lighthouse as well.
simey
27-Oct-2014
10:25:33 AM
>The old guidebook did not have a star rating system Simey! So, I'm not
>sure what you mean by they threw them around like confetti???

I must have been using one of the very first guidebooks to Point Perp when I first visited the area. I remember jumping on a couple of three star routes and thinking, 'You must be f---ing joking!'

I do recall the previous Point Perp guide not using any stars and being even more pissed off about that as it helped me even less. I couldn't believe the authors would be so lame.

>Maybe three stars is an exaggeration as their location isn't the jaw dropping
>exposure of other routes. But comparing them to other multi-starred routes
>at the same cliff they are equal - if not better for sure. Especially if
>you like sustained climbing rather than one move wonders after grade 19
>jugfests which is typical of Point Perp hard routes.

Well just because you think a climb is good, then you shouldn't throwing three stars at it automatically. And I don't buy the line that routes should be starred according to the cliff. If a cliff is average, then maybe the best routes are only worth two stars. In my opinion, you set yourself up criticism by awarding routes three stars. Be conservative.

prb
27-Oct-2014
10:34:12 AM
On 27/10/2014 nmonteith wrote:

>it's a catch 22, if you tell people it is cobwebby and unloved - the route will continue to stay that way

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, not a catch-22.

nmonteith
27-Oct-2014
11:01:40 AM
On 27/10/2014 simey wrote:
>Well just because you think a climb is good, then you shouldn't throwing
>three stars at it automatically. And I don't buy the line that routes should
>be starred according to the cliff. If a cliff is average, then maybe the
>best routes are only worth two stars. In my opinion, you set yourself up
>criticism by awarding routes three stars. Be conservative.

Rather than turn this into a discussion about the merits of stars - can we please just keep to topic and suggest cool routes that you think are not getting the ascents they deserve? What is your fav route at Point Perp Simey? It sounds like you just got disappointed there... maybe start another topic call "Most over-hyped Point Perp Routes?"
hipdos
27-Oct-2014
1:38:25 PM
Great topic. The latest guide is great except for the stupid '90% of the routes in the guide have no stars' system. I always thought no stars should be for 'don't really bother' routes and one star routes should at least be worth your time, without expecting anything sensational. That's a pretty important distinction!

I haven't got too many examples of under-rated climbs there, but I have good memories of the wall climbs immediately right of the Over the Yardarm wall, none of which get a star in the new guide. (Despite pulling a big flake off one, on the subject of another post...).

nmonteith
27-Oct-2014
1:40:41 PM
I think good routes with poor protection shouldn't have their stars removed - as Point Perp is a place that is unique in that top-roping a route is actually easier to rig than leading it!
simey
27-Oct-2014
1:46:28 PM
On 27/10/2014 nmonteith wrote:
>Rather than turn this into a discussion about the merits of stars - can
>we please just keep to topic and suggest cool routes that you think are
>not getting the ascents they deserve? What is your fav route at Point Perp
>Simey? It sounds like you just got disappointed there... maybe start another
>topic call "Most over-hyped Point Perp Routes?"

Unfortunately I have lent my latest Point Perp guide to someone (and I can't remember whom), so I can't refer to it.

martym
27-Oct-2014
5:31:23 PM
On 27/10/2014 nmonteith wrote:
>p.s. Point Perp isn't Arapiles - so when I say three star I am judging
>the quality relative to others routes at Point Perp. Loose rock, sandy
>slopers, dodgy bolts are par for the course.

Maybe we need a thread rating Australia's crags? Then you could multiply / divide base on the overall crag rating?
3 stars at a 2 star crag (PP) vs 5 stars at a 3 star crag (BM) vs 3 stars at a 5 star crag (Araps)?
PDRM
27-Oct-2014
5:46:24 PM
On 27/10/2014 martym wrote:

>Maybe we need a thread rating Australia's crags? Then you could multiply
>/ divide base on the overall crag rating?
>3 stars at a 2 star crag (PP) vs 5 stars at a 3 star crag (BM) vs 3 stars
>at a 5 star crag (Araps)?

That's certainly the case in the US.

P
One Day Hero
28-Oct-2014
12:12:30 AM
Yeah Simey, I'm with Neil on this one. Those two routes of Duncans are absolute corkers, I'd give them 2 and 3 stars.

Regarding star allocation, it's a bit tricky. If you over-star it's exactly the same as under-staring. I've already subconsciously recalibrated the Blueys 5 star system to basically expect 1star routes to be shithouse.

Describing out of condition routes in a guidebook is a really fine line to tread. Obviously the route could get cleaned up in an afternoon and then be in good condition for the next couple of years, but on the flip side if you send people out to dirty choss time and time again they quickly lose faith in anything you have to say. As always, I think people should rely less on the guide, use their own fuching eyes more, and be prepared to check routes out and brush them if needed. Drama averted!

And Neilo, it's becoming apparent that you have an axe to grind with Rob over the guidebook. Fair enough if you don't like it, but why not condense all your bitching into one thread? I reckon it's slightly better than your Gramps guide, but they are both very good books.
One Day Hero
28-Oct-2014
12:31:51 AM
On 27/10/2014 simey wrote:
>And I don't buy the line that routes should
>be starred according to the cliff. If a cliff is average, then maybe the
>best routes are only worth two stars. In my opinion, you set yourself up
>criticism by awarding routes three stars. Be conservative.

This is ridiculous. You've disappeared up your own arsehole with notions of how a guidebook author has to manage expectations and objectively quantify route quality. As long as the starring is relatively consistent within the book, smartish people will work the rest out very quickly. I have no urge at all to cater to those who are too stupid to do their own star calibration at a new area after having sampled a few routes.
simey
28-Oct-2014
9:07:18 AM
On 28/10/2014 One Day Hero wrote:
>Regarding star allocation, it's a bit tricky. If you over-star it's exactly
>the same as under-staring.

Not exactly. There is nothing worse than having limited time to visit a cliff and jumping on an overly hyped route only to discover that your time would have been better spent on something else. However you don't exactly get pissed off if your chosen climb turns out to be much better than you expected.

It sounds like Neil is coming from the perspective of having climbed a lot at The Point so he can start jumping on the more obscure routes and being picky about their write-ups. The cobweb symbol to me simply implies that the route doesn't receive many ascents and that knowledge about the route might be lacking. I reckon it is a great symbol as it means that the route might be a gem, but the guidebook author simply doesn't know much about it.


>This is ridiculous. You've disappeared up your own arsehole with notions of how a guidebook author has to manage expectations and objectively quantify route quality. As long as the starring is relatively consistent within the book, smartish people will work the rest out very quickly.

All I am saying is that guidebook authors will cop less flak by being conservative. In my opinion a three-star system works pretty well and basically anything that gets one star should be worthy of your time, whilst the three-star routes are generally mega-classics that have been acknowledged as such by a large number of climbers over time (not purely by Neil or yourself saying 'I did this route the other day and it is a three-star mega-classic!').

simey
28-Oct-2014
9:23:37 AM
To be totally honest, I reckon a lot of the time a two-star system would work fine in most guides...

One star = good
Two stars = really good

Differentiating between two and three star routes is often tricky.That's why I am so against the five star system as used in the Blueys as I don't understand how they determine the quality of routes that specifically.


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