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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

Poll Option Votes Graph
"You're not coming up without that piece!" 5
21% 
"I'll abseil down myself - don't worry" 14
58% 
"Don't worry, you can buy me a new one" 0
 
Lose a piece of gear every now & again, no stress 4
17% 
I climb sport so this isn't a problem 0
 
I climb sport & still have this problem :p 0
 
I donated all my gear to the booty climb! 1
4% 

Author
Cleaning Ethics

steph
5/02/2008
11:02:35 AM
So I'm wondering what various people's expectations are on the person that cleans the route/pitch you've led... Is the seconder purely responsible for getting out all the leader's precious gear? And if so, are we a little more lenient on newbies? Is it equally the leader's fault for getting the gear stuck in the first place?

Personally, I reckon the leader should primarily be concerned about placing safe gear - it's the seconder's job to retrieve it. I'd be very hesitant to leave any gear behind so I'd probably be in the Option 1 or 2 category.

What say we???

evanbb
5/02/2008
11:14:44 AM
I find it's directly affected by whether or not you're hoping to shag your second later that day...

"Don't worry about that one darling, I'll rap back down, then prussick back up, you just sit there looking pretty..."

throwback
5/02/2008
12:23:03 PM
I find that often the best (safest) gear is also the easiest to clean. It's the placements that are less than perfect that often cause the problems, specially in the case of wires but also cams. So I guess what I'm saying is that good (safe, skilled) leading normally also equals easier cleaning for the second.

Eduardo Slabofvic
5/02/2008
1:04:31 PM
I really hate having to hang around trying to get someone's over cammed cam. They should be made to
get them themselves and thus learn about cam placement.

I also hate it when I follow some really skinny person who places gear deep inside a crack where i can't
reach it.
uwhp510
5/02/2008
1:10:28 PM
On 5/02/2008 throwback wrote:
>I find that often the best (safest) gear is also the easiest to clean.

You've obviously never climbed with my mate Jamie. He is a true believer in "setting" his wires with pretty much the maximum force he can muster, and believe me they don't come out easy.

ShinToe Warrior
5/02/2008
1:18:21 PM
Stuck gear isn't usually a problem when the second carries a hammer and chisel on their harness :)

IdratherbeclimbingM9
5/02/2008
1:22:53 PM
On 5/02/2008 throwback wrote:
>I find that often the best (safest) gear is also the easiest to clean.
>It's the placements that are less than perfect that often cause the problems,
>specially in the case of wires but also cams.

I often find the less than perfect placements easier to clean! ... ie marginal pro almost falls out. Heh, heh, heh.


>So I guess what I'm saying is that good (safe, skilled) leading normally also equals easier cleaning for the second.

As others have posted above there are a variety of reasons that this may not be the case. Others to add to the list would include height/reach of 2nd vs leader; stance (ability of 2nd to use it); grade ... if the 2nd is on something way hard for them they are likely to leave the cleaning to you!

steph wrote;
>Is the seconder purely responsible for getting out all the leader's precious gear?
Generally no. It depends on prior agreements and a whole host of variables.

>And if so, are we a little more lenient on newbies?
As above.

>Is it equally the leader's fault for getting the gear stuck in the first place?
Often yes imo.

throwback
5/02/2008
2:02:44 PM

>I often find the less than perfect placements easier to clean! ... ie
>marginal pro almost falls out. Heh, heh, heh.

Too true in the extreme case! I was thinking more about wires placements that don't have a great contact area so when you seat them they tend to bite more, or the over cammed/ unequal cam, the gear in the back of the crack etc.


>>So I guess what I'm saying is that good (safe, skilled) leading normally
>also equals easier cleaning for the second.
>
>As others have posted above there are a variety of reasons that this may
>not be the case. Others to add to the list would include height/reach of
>2nd vs leader; stance (ability of 2nd to use it); grade ... if the 2nd
>is on something way hard for them they are likely to leave the cleaning
>to you!

Sure, there are lots of reasons why the second might have trouble cleaning (or even climbing) a pitch, I don't think anyone would deny that. What I'm saying is that how and where a leader places pro can often make the seconds job a lot easier or harder and so 'good' leading bears this in mind. This is often only possible when the leader is climbing something well within their abilities, leading close to your limit you just want to get the gear in and the other niceties are forgotten!


IdratherbeclimbingM9
5/02/2008
2:14:51 PM
True!

Bel
5/02/2008
2:21:34 PM
so who gets to claim the booty? the leader or the poor sod that manages to wrestle it from the cliff?

Macciza
5/02/2008
2:42:47 PM
On 5/02/2008 Bel wrote:
>so who gets to claim the booty? the leader or the poor sod that manages
>to wrestle it from the cliff?

The leader gets the booty because the seconder would not be there without them . . .

Bel
5/02/2008
2:56:40 PM
come on, what if your just swinging leads! personally if im leading ill have a crack at getting the gear out myself if im following the chances of the leader getting the booty of me is sfa!
Duncan
5/02/2008
3:18:34 PM
On 5/02/2008 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>I also hate it when I follow some really skinny person who places gear
>deep inside a crack where i can't
>reach it.

One of my climbing partners has an arm-span of approximately 9 feet. His favourite trick is placing a cam at full stretch from a nice ledge, which means that I have to do about 4 moves to get to the damn thing to clean it.

steph
7/02/2008
12:32:41 PM
um who added the last poll option??? we gotta keep these mods under control ppl :) hehe

Re: the view that the best placements are easiest to get out - I'd have to say it depends what type of rock you're climbing on & how much you are wetting your pants on the crux. I don't think the leader should be thinking about the seconder when they place gear (unless as stated you are looking for a shag). But remembering how a particularly intricate piece was placed can help the seconder when they get stuck. And some of the best placements I've seen are firmly jammed. This eases mindset most of all but also keeps the placement where you seated it in case of ropedrag or clumsy feet...

Re: newbies, you gotta be easier on them cos they have no experience yet but let them know that getting the gear out is their job as seconder.

Personally I'll take a bomber thread or sling any day - happy climbing for both parties :)

Brother Colin
7/02/2008
2:17:25 PM
When I was learning to trad the rules were:
2nd'er cleans all gear,
If the leader has to come down to get stuck piece the 2nd'er owes them a beer.
If leader then can not get piece out, owes 2nd'er beer and owner of piece a beer and a new piece.

Needless to say I very rarely leave gear behind while 2nd'ing and learnt how to get gear out quickly.

Newby's get one climb grace period.

Wonderdog
7/02/2008
2:45:55 PM
Hmmm... most of my past seconds were pretty good at getting out my paranoid gear placements... except Ed who sucked big time at getting out my overcammed cams... I will never forget Moira bitchin and moaning seconding me on Tanin... very amusing, but she didn't leave any of my well set gear behind... a fine second!
rolsen1
7/02/2008
8:26:44 PM
You do need to need to give your new seconds a chance to learn..... but it begins to become a pain if you find yourself trying to remember every placement just so you can yell step by step instructions from the belay.
tastybigmac
7/02/2008
8:33:48 PM
you forgot "i'm not climbing that, no one has left any gear in there for me."
kieranl
7/02/2008
8:44:50 PM
I don't like to ruin my seconds day by forcing them to hang around trying to get out gear that I've placed badly. I placed it and if they can't get it out with a reasonable effort then it's my problem. That's my rule for normal cragging. If you're on something big and serious then speed and safety take precedence over cost and gamesmanship.
Squall
8/02/2008
12:55:39 PM
On 7/02/2008 tastybigmac wrote:
>you forgot "i'm not climbing that, no one has left any gear in there for
>me."

Then you better start climbing mate







__________________________
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