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Padlocked bolts – Buffalo South Gorge lookout

chalkischeap

7-Mar-2007
7:06:24 AM

Just below the lookout railings there are several bolts with padlocks fitted. These are presumably placed by a commercial organisation for abseiling purposes. Does anyone know the reason for the padlocks?


muki

7-Mar-2007
8:12:14 AM

If they are placed by a comercial operator, then it could be an anti litigation devise.
But it begs the question, if the bolts were placed in a national park, then these bolts are surely illegal,
and that ownership (hence padlocking)of said bolts is Questionable?
It would be interesting to know for sure if the bolts are sanctioned by Parks Victoria, It could be a good
thing for climbers if they are sanctioned, as it would give us as a group a legal precedent if other groups
of outdoor rope enthusiasts have Parks permision to bolt cliffs for protection to enjoy themselves.


climbau

7-Mar-2007
8:44:31 AM

PV is aware of these bolts, and approved their installation. They were installed for commercial use and (I think) were engineered and installed by professionals.

julian.A

7-Mar-2007
8:57:31 AM

"It could be a good thing for climbers if they are sanctioned, as it would give us as a group a legal precedent if other groups of outdoor rope enthusiasts have Parks permision to bolt cliffs for protection to enjoy themselves"

Would that also mean that we would (like all licensed commercial operators) have to apply for a license, pay an annual license fee, pay a fee per person each time we operate in the park, and submit a trip/activity application for each trip into the park ?
- This is certainly the case in NSW, It may vary slightly in VIC but from memory its fairly simular.


cruze

7-Mar-2007
9:04:08 AM

I have seen guides/operators using the bolts and locking them up at the end of the day. Funky looking bolts too. I am not sure about them providing precedent however, because I am sure that they are a registered company with there own liabaility insurance. I don't think that climbers fall into the same boat. A reasonable assumption by Parks would be that climbers would almost certainly look to seek restitution for damages from Parks itself in the event of an accident. I am not saying I would necessarily, or that climbers in general do, but it would be a reasonable assumption and you only need one person to succeed.

I do, however, think it is a good example of hypocrisy in light of the 'eyesore' argument. But then you don't need to look much further than the stains on the rock below the various lookouts to counter their argument.

julian.A

7-Mar-2007
9:14:38 AM

Forget the stains. What about just the lookouts !


cruze

7-Mar-2007
9:39:19 AM

I would say that the lookouts are an unfortunate side-effect of the decision to build an access road to the top of the plateau. Wherever there is a road, there will be a lookout. The stains are a further unfortunate side-effect - and, in hindsight, entriely preventable I am sure.

Then again, not so many of us would complain about the presence of the road. I don't think there was any climbing up there before an access road was constructed? European inhabitation of the plateau is fairly old is it not?

7-Mar-2007
10:34:20 AM

They are the bolts of Dave Chitty the operator of the well known adventure company up there. He also puts out extremely obvious sandwich boards advertising his offerings in full sight of Vic Parks and obviously has permission for all his activities. He also offers to take climbers through the underground river as non-paying add-ons to his paid groups, and has made offers (to some) to use his 200m static for express rides down the north wall to the route of your choice. A good friend for climbers to have!

So long as parks are happy it's all win-win and a non-issue IMO.

PS the abseil there is quite short and much quicker descent is Glass Gully so the bolts are of little use to climbers for descent purposes. The pleasant toprope route Turkey Chute (14) is directly below here, and the only anchor for this is to sling the padlocked bolts and/or the lookout fence - don't know which is the lesser of two evils.


climbau

7-Mar-2007
10:36:10 AM

On 7/03/2007 cruze wrote:
> European inhabitation of the plateau is fairly old is
>it not?
Guide Alice was up there in the 1850's and cattle were grazed prior to that.

*WARNING* speculation....
Perhaps the bolts were approved through an application for development process in conjunction with the Chalet as well as the commercial operator??

chalkischeap

7-Mar-2007
12:08:50 PM

I’ve never seen a padlocked bolt before and it gave me an idea.

I have recently bolted and climbed 5 new routes on a cliff close to Melbourne. I have the landowner’s permission but I am worried about litigation. Since no-one seems to object to the principle of the Buffalo padlocks, then I will padlock the first bolt and the crux bolt of each climb.

Anyone wanting to climb these routes will have to contact me for the keys, show proof of insurance and VCC Membership, sign a disclaimer and pay an administration fee and deposit.

This will also ensure that the climbs won’t be overrun with punters when I arrive with my mates for a climbing session.

Allright?


Eduardo Slabofvic

7-Mar-2007
12:27:52 PM

That's brilliant idea. I'm going to go padlock every bolt ar Arapiles, you will need to produce your "I'm a
limp dicked sport climber" badge to get the keys.

7-Mar-2007
12:40:48 PM

On 7/03/2007 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>That's brilliant idea. I'm going to go padlock every bolt ar Arapiles,
>you will need to produce your "I'm a
>limp dicked sport climber" badge to get the keys.

people still climb at arapiles ?


gordoste

7-Mar-2007
1:22:51 PM

On 7/03/2007 WM wrote:
>PS the abseil there is quite short and much quicker descent is Glass Gully
>so the bolts are of little use to climbers for descent purposes. The pleasant
>toprope route Turkey Chute (14) is directly below here, and the only anchor
>for this is to sling the padlocked bolts and/or the lookout fence - don't
>know which is the lesser of two evils.

There's some bushes a fair way back that are quite solid, you just have to go around a few of them and equalise with the lookout. Dave actually told us that's what he does when he puts clients on that route.


gordoste

7-Mar-2007
1:33:35 PM

On 7/03/2007 chalkischeap wrote:
>I’ve never seen a padlocked bolt before and it gave me an idea.
>
>I have recently bolted and climbed 5 new routes on a cliff close to Melbourne.
>I have the landowner’s permission but I am worried about litigation. Since
>no-one seems to object to the principle of the Buffalo padlocks, then I
>will padlock the first bolt and the crux bolt of each climb.
>
>Anyone wanting to climb these routes will have to contact me for the keys,
>show proof of insurance and VCC Membership, sign a disclaimer and pay an
>administration fee and deposit.
>
>This will also ensure that the climbs won’t be overrun with punters when
>I arrive with my mates for a climbing session.
>
>Allright?

Fine. Just don't be surprised if people think you're an a$$hole, and start asking you not to climb anywhere else. The tradition of allowing others to use your bolts is enforced via social pressures. Commercial operators are not subject to these pressures as they are not part of the climbing community.

However, I think you are just playing devil's advocate. As previous posters pointed out, it's essentially useless for climbers. My opinion is that Dave padlocked this bolt as it's really obvious and he's worried about some stupid idiot (not a climber) trying to do something they shouldn't. I am guessing if the bolt was somewhere less travelled there would be no padlock.

Dave C

7-Mar-2007
3:28:33 PM

Playing devil's advocate? Here's me thinking he was just taking the piss!


climbau

7-Mar-2007
4:16:12 PM

Does anyone know the cost of getting a Geotech on site to check rock stability and the cost of an Engineer to certify the equipment needed to meet the geotech's specs so that I can meet insurance needs and PV's needs?

The Buffalo operator is a very approachable fellow. If you run into him up there and ask to use the bolts, I'm sure he would not object.


nmonteith

7-Mar-2007
5:02:10 PM

On 7/03/2007 climbau wrote:
>Does anyone know the cost of getting a Geotech on site to check rock stability

I would be very wary of these sort of people. Take Crookneck in Queensland for example. It was
'checked' by the Geotechs who then pronounced it unsafe and thus the entire mountain was banned -
permanently.


climbau

7-Mar-2007
5:18:22 PM

On 7/03/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>On 7/03/2007 climbau wrote:
>>Does anyone know the cost of getting a Geotech on site to check rock
>stability
>
>I would be very wary of these sort of people. Take Crookneck in Queensland
>for example. It was
>'checked' by the Geotechs who then pronounced it unsafe and thus the entire
>mountain was banned -
>permanently.
My previous post was to put the point across to certain contributors that sometimes PV/NPWS/Commercial operators have to jump through some silly hoops in order to get fixtures installed. We had to go through the whole "Geotech" scenario when installing some hardware for NPWS. Back then it was something like $1100 just for the Geotech to come out and tap the rock with his hammer.
Just another excuse for padlocking bolts, aside from the liability case.


Eduardo Slabofvic

7-Mar-2007
6:03:53 PM

On 7/03/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>I would be very wary of these sort of people. Take Crookneck in Queensland
>for example. It was
>'checked' by the Geotechs who then pronounced it unsafe and thus the entire
>mountain was banned - permanently.

They were probably correct in doing that! the only thing more unstable than the rock at Crookneck were
the people climbing there.

I also remember the gigantic retro bolting they did at 'roo point, where they bolted the only decent bit of
rock onto itself (Hanger wall, I think it was called), whilst leaving the rest of the choss to crumble.


nmonteith

7-Mar-2007
6:51:59 PM

sniff sniff. i used to like crookneck. brings back memories of dubious ascents with my dad using a rope
from the hardware store. its more like mountaineering in some parts!

There are 33 messages in this topic.