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Guide books non vcc

bob

17-May-2005
9:07:14 PM

Can any one suggest any good guide books not selected or vcc, ones that have everything (even the cliffs that people forgot where are (scout wall)) putucley in the Grampians and any where really I just thing the vcc guides suck I have 2 they really could do a better job.

Bob

nmonteith

18-May-2005
9:16:43 AM

Which guides do you have Bob?

Go to this page http://www.chockstone.org/Grampians/Grampians.htm and scroll down to the bottom. It has pictures of all the current Grampians guidebooks. The VCC has published most of them. Older guidebooks are not as user friendly as the Tempest/Mentz ones. They rarely used topo's, maps ect and instead relied on climbers to use map reading skills and route finding skills. The older guides are usually just a collection of first ascent descriptions.

dalai

18-May-2005
9:27:05 AM

On 18/05/2005 nmonteith wrote:
>The older guides are usually just a collection of first
>ascent descriptions.

Unless BA has had something to do with the guide. Then it will have a huge history section as well.

nmonteith

18-May-2005
9:35:02 AM

On 17/05/2005 bob wrote:
> I just think the vcc guides
>suck I have 2 they really could do a better job.

Have you found mistakes in the guides? If so - make sure you write up the corrections and send it into the VCC so the next guide is correct. Email argus at vicclimb.org.au

dalai

18-May-2005
9:57:04 AM

I agree with Neil.

Bob, if you have critisism about the guides. Offer constructive comments, corrections etc and send them into the vcc as per Neil's suggestion.

Having starting compiling a guide from scratch, it's a monumental task to try and gather the data. Then the hours of toil to put it into a format which works. The job done by BA, Kieren and others to get the guide to you would be in the 100's of hours each guide (BA can confirm - though I would expect he doesn't keep a tally of time taken as it would be too depressing!!).

Martin

BA

18-May-2005
12:09:56 PM

On 18/05/2005 dalai wrote:

>Having starting compiling a guide from scratch, it's a monumental task
>to try and gather the data. Then the hours of toil to put it into a format
>which works. The job done by BA, Kieren and others to get the guide to
>you would be in the 100's of hours each guide (BA can confirm - though
>I would expect he doesn't keep a tally of time taken as it would be too
>depressing!!).

I do have rough estimates of the time taken, eg Eastern Vic was about 600 hours at the PC (not including field work) drawing maps/topos, scanning in old access/route descriptions from Argus and the old guides, those guides done before computers made the task so much easier. But even that wasn't so straight forward, the North Grampians guide was done on a machine using double-sided/double-density 8 inch disks in a CPM system. Of course the typesetters only had a single-sided/single-density capability so it had to be copied to 4 disks before they could do anything with it. Then there was 5 1/2" floppies, then 3 1/2" floppies then Zip drives and now it's done to a CD. The money I've been paid for doing the guides has basically paid for hardware/software upgrades, the only 'toy' I've bought myself is a new TV.

As young Neil and Dalai have suggested above, if you have found any errors then let us know, if you have any suggestions to improve the layout, let us know. How can we tell what needs improving if you don't tell us what's wrong with the guide? Why do they "suck"?

Personally I'd like more people involved with the guides, especially the E, SW & NW Vic guides. There are lots of areas that warrant only one visit (if at all) and if someone goes there they can do a write up and if it's good enough it can go straight into the guide. If they feel they lack the skills or confidence then they can just submit some beta and the editor can knock it into shape.

People like Robin Holmes (especially at Tenneriffe), Paul Martin (Mounts Pilot and Stanley), have done heaps of work while others have contributed smaller amounts. These smaller amounts, from people such as Wayne Maher, Iain Sedgman, James McIntosh, Stuart King, Neil Monteith and others all helps to get a guidebook closer to reality, your input will help as well.

Now it's time to update some more info at Beckworth.

(And yes, it can sometimes get depressing Dalai.)

M

18-May-2005
1:41:05 PM

Personally I am big fan of the VCC Victorian guide books and appreciate the massive amount of time and
effort that goes into them. Thanks

A related point that I have wondered about recently is what the selected guides will mean for future
comprehensive guides. In the Grampians or at Arapiles it is fairly uncommon to see any other guides
besides the selected guides (or a pdf printout for a sport crag). Does this mean less people are buying the
comprehensive guides? If so will they be updated less often or not at all? Although I like the idea of the
selected guides and use them, there does appear to be a downside.

Eduardo Slabofvic

18-May-2005
1:59:28 PM

On 18/05/2005 MatD wrote:
>A related point that I have wondered about recently is what the selected
>guides will mean for future
>comprehensive guides. In the Grampians or at Arapiles it is fairly uncommon
>to see any other guides
>besides the selected guides (or a pdf printout for a sport crag). Does
>this mean less people are buying the
>comprehensive guides? If so will they be updated less often or not at
>all? Although I like the idea of the
>selected guides and use them, there does appear to be a downside.

Agreed. You would need a new guide of Arapiles just to contain all the worthless crap routes Pritchard is responsible for. Which would stop people inadvertently retro bolting them.

I do not like all the history, first ascent, hero worship crap in guides. The Mentzturbater will disagree. All I really want to know is where are the routes and where do they go. I would recommend the Finale (Italy) guide format to any would be guidebook writer.

gfdonc

18-May-2005
2:32:51 PM

Geez, I thought this thread was just a troll by Simey trying to bag the competition. Looks like maybe not ...

simey

18-May-2005
6:46:12 PM

You won't find me bagging VCC guides (apart from the fact that their pages keep falling out).

In fact Glenn and I are very supportive of the hard work done by the VCC in producing their comprehensive guidebooks. I think the more recent guides by BA and others (to around Melbourne) are surprisingly user-friendly. I've been quite impressed with the number of maps, line drawings and photo-topos.

VCC guides might not be the slickest on the market, but there is lot of research work that goes into them. And at least the likes of BA manage to get them finished. The number of people who talk about producing guides but who never do is pretty phenomenal.

simey

18-May-2005
7:03:20 PM

On 18/05/2005 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>I do not like all the history, first ascent, hero worship crap in guides.

What are you talking about Eduardo? You just organised a whole climbing film night full of historical films!

And I have heard you reel off many anecdotes to do with early ascents and different characters from the Queensland climbing scene.

You obviously have some level of interest in climbing history!

Robin

18-May-2005
8:41:29 PM

Surely this is a troll. Bob, you don't have a clue. I can't even be bothered arguing against rubbish like that.

Eduardo Slabofvic

18-May-2005
9:14:42 PM

On 18/05/2005 simey wrote:
>What are you talking about Eduardo? You just organised a whole climbing
>film night full of historical films!
>
>And I have heard you reel off many anecdotes to do with early ascents
>and different characters from the Queensland climbing scene.
>
>You obviously have some level of interest in climbing history!

I never meant to imply that I have no interest in the history of climbing. My bookshelves have just as many picture books on climbing as anyone else. I just would rather guide book writers focus on the routes. Thats what I want in a guidebook.

The history sections in guidebooks are the first to go whenever I get caught short whilst out climbing. If you are going to write a history section, maybe you could print it on absorbent paper and have a perforated edge on the inside near the binding.

I accept that writing a guidebook is hard work, so why not make a bit easier and quicker by leaving out the crap. If you want to write about history then write a history book.

The Finale guide is excellent. It uses topos and icons to convey the info, making it multi lingual. Mind you it's been 10 years since I was there, so there may be a new edition by now.

bob

18-May-2005
10:09:16 PM

never ment to be a troll i achaley have a lot of trubble with my eastern guide like folwing what it means, and the pages falling out and im not bagging the efort that goes in to them caus it's got to be a lot of worke, i dont like the 2 i have thats my opinuon what i was really arsking is fore a good guid book grampionds and apaps that has all the climbs in them so i have moor then just the slected i want to know what alse is there i have the 2 slected ones and i like them. looks like ive pissed off some peopple so im just gona drop it.

bob

- edited for easier reading -
I never meant to be a troll, I actually have a lot of trouble with my Eastern Victoria guidebook. Like following what it means and with the pages falling out! I'm not bagging the effort that goes in to them because it's got to be a lot of work. I don't like the 2 I have and that's my opinion.
What I was really asking is for a good guide book to the Grampians and Arapiles. One that has all the climbs in them, so I have more than just the selected climbs. I want to know what else is there is, I have the 2 selected ones and I like them. It looks like I've pissed off some people so I'm just going drop it.

BA

19-May-2005
5:01:43 PM

I've seen Russ Crow's Finale 2K guide and while it works for 'sports' crags its style doesn't really suit the bigger 'trad/adventure' crags. Russ did plump for the 'falling pram' icon though, something to do with taking young children to the crag. Is that what you want Eduardo? :-)

Actually the pages falling out is just a plot to get people to go out and buy the latest versions of the guide, they have bloody big staples holding the pages together!

The next version of NW Vic will be stapled as well, look for it towards the end of the year (shameless plug).

nmonteith

19-May-2005
5:12:26 PM

Euro style topo guides would be hopeless to describe complex areas such as the You Yangs. I really like written route descriptions - especially ones with some sort of funny story involved. If its just a list of names and grades it just feels sterile.

kieranl

19-May-2005
5:14:13 PM

ah thck e sew Bebs prblum

IdratherbeclimbingM9

19-May-2005
6:01:27 PM

Keep going Bob, ... you have my vote (and respect) for being a bold leader*.

(*How run-out must it be? ... to keep posting, ... despite the choss often encountered on an unprotected Chockstone Forum Route.)

There are 18 messages in this topic.