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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 59
Author
"New" tricks for old dogs
technogeekery
27-Jun-2016
2:41:42 PM
I learned to climb in the '80s, self taught from books and picking up hints from the crusties at the Mountain Club. Pretty safe, eventually, but very much a "leader must not fall" mindset. And some of those practises have hung on in my climbing to this date - lead on half ropes, indirect belays of the second from the harness, set belays with the rope, belaying with friction device rather than assisted locking.

But over the last few years I've been consciously trying new things, rejecting some, and adopting others. This weekend I did one I've been avoiding for years, and completely revise my rap techniques - and afterwards just thought - why didn't I do this years ago? Here are a few things I've changed and really like the "new" way - have you got any similar "new" tricks that have worked for you?

Rap - I've always used double fisherman's to join ropes on a long rap. Its bomber, I know its bomber, and I've used it for 30 years so I have not the slightest concern. But its bloody hard to undo, and it does jam sometimes - so I finally got around to trying the EDK (overhand tied with double ropes) on a triple-rap descent where getting the rope stuck would be a big issue. It looks terrifyingly simple / insufficient, and going over the edge for the first time was horrible - but I've read the studies and it really is bomber... so over-rode my reptile brain. It held. Interestingly, it did jam on one pull - took two of us heaving to break it loose - but of course that means nothing, I guess if that had been a double fisherman's it could have been irretrievable. But it is easy & quick to tie, to check, and to untie after being loaded, and I could also pull it through some big rings when I threaded the rap station the wrong way - so I'll keep using it.

Using autoblock (French prusik) as 3rd-hand backup on rap. I've never backed up raps - never knew it was possible for many years, and then when I first tried it many years ago, found it a real hassle (using prusik knot above friction device) and even possibly hazardous. But I've recently started extending the friction device a little, and then using autoblock off belay loop. Such a simple wrap of rope, doesn't look like it should work - but it is super easy to set, use, reset, and adds about 10s to the rap setup. And when you release it and let it stop you, the mechanism becomes obvious - and looks bomber. For that 10s I'd say it would save minutes of stuffing about with leg wraps etc while sorting rope snarls on the way down - and adds a significant layer of safety. I love it, I'm a convert.

PAS / Chain reactor as tether. Still trying this out - wasn't convinced I need to carry MORE crap up a climb, I already carry far too much pro as I'm a scaredy cat. And there is nothing you can do with a PAS that you can't do with rope / slings etc. But gee it is convenient for extending your friction device on rap, then using the free end to clip to rap station, for clipping in to bolts or anchor at end of a pitch, for getting hanging belays just right, etc. Non essential, but I like it, and means I can use all my slings on the route, not save for the belay, or unpick knots after making up tethers etc.

Cordelette - I made belays from the rope for years, and it just works. But for the last couple of years I've made up my own cordelettes, and my belayer and I each carry / use one for multipitch trad. I keep them tied in a quad for bolted routes, and it is super quick / bomber / convenient. Untied into a loop it is easy to make mostly equalised 3-anchor belays very fast. I really like having the rope outside of the belay, keeps things clean & simple. A convenience item that has possibly improved the safety of my belays - and definitely been worth its weight in speed / ease / flexibility. I have one in 5.5mm tech cord (much lighter and more compact) and one in 7mm accessory cord - and prefer the latter for its flexibility, stretch, handling characteristics etc. I'm a complete convert.

Eduardo Slabofvic
27-Jun-2016
4:07:25 PM
Are you trying to start a fight?
mikllaw
27-Jun-2016
10:58:29 PM
All really good stuff, what I think of as "Good and Safe" is more a matter of history than logic so many of these things are very useful. I always like to try the new tricks, but sometimes I can't adapt.
-Though I belay leaders off the waist, with seconds I either use a guide ATC/reverso or belay off the belay loop with a high and bomber redirect (great for leading through).
- Cordelettes are great for sport block leading, you need many meters of cordelette for my trad belays though.
- EDK is great but I know 1 experienced person who tried to rap off the free ends of an EDk, hence I tie 2 close together with short ends.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
28-Jun-2016
4:34:29 PM
>"New" tricks for old dogs

What I'm not keen on is the new attitude that goes with some of the new tricks...
... Like overbolted slabs.
Like over protected NPs (eg ban on climbing Nth Head, and Balls Pyramid).
Like U-tube instructional videos that amount to death on a stick...
Like~
gfdonc
28-Jun-2016
5:24:15 PM
OK I'll weigh in. I've been climbing since the late 70's so a similar length of experience.

The scouts and MUMC can take some responsibility for my climbing education. Actually not so much education, more access to cheap loaner gear rather than expertise or supervision. My first lead instruction involved making sure I could tie in properly then saying "go up there".
Nevertheless a few of us worked it out and climbed with enough more experienced folk to pick up enough tips so as not to perish too quickly.

Over the years I've stuck with what I am comfortable with. There have been a few additional ideas thrown in along the way. Some of these have fortunately stayed with me, such as using a proper quickdraw for clipping bolts (back in the bad days we used to just use two biners). Others not, such as belaying off a munter (I could probably work it out if I had to).

Nevertheless I still prefer to belay off the harness, but I'll run the rope through a bomber redirect when bringing up the second.

I still stick with a double fishermans. When rapping, the last person should always feed the knot over the edge. I can only recall one instance where the rope got stuck due to the knot, on the Mirrorball rap where it went into a crack and any type of knot would have stuck just the same.

EDK still has limits with ropes of unequal diameter I believe.

I don't use an autoblock on raps. I find it's better to have two hands free to hold the rope and I think less complicated systems are inherently safer over a long time. If taking beginners, I let them rap on a single and belay them on the other rope.

Never owned a PAS, I can see the point but it's one more thing to carry. I will take a cordelette a lot of the time, 7mm or 8mm nylon cord, which is tough and stretchy enough to absorb shock. However if moving fast or saving weight I'll just use the rope to tie into the belay.

My 2c.


Zarb
28-Jun-2016
7:11:11 PM
On 28/06/2016 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>>"New" tricks for old dogs
>
>What I'm not keen on is the new attitude that goes with some of the new
>tricks...
>... Like overbolted slabs.
>Like over protected NPs (eg ban on climbing Nth Head, and Balls Pyramid).
>
>Like U-tube instructional videos that amount to death on a stick...
>Like~

No, f**k slabs. Bolt them to hell. They scare the shit out of me. And Aretes. Bolt them too. (Half joking btw, don't want to start an ethics war).

As for Balls Pyramid, I thought that climbers were the one group that it is quite lenient towards in terms of permits?
gfdonc
28-Jun-2016
9:30:32 PM
On 28/06/2016 Zarb wrote:
>As for Balls Pyramid, I thought that climbers were the one group that
>it is quite lenient towards in terms of permits?

As long as you're not this lady ..
http://www.outsideonline.com/2008316/climber-eats-bugs-wall

phillipivan
28-Jun-2016
10:05:36 PM
On 28/06/2016 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>>"New" tricks for old dogs
>
>What I'm not keen on is the new attitude that goes with some of the new
>tricks...
>... Like overbolted slabs.
>Like over protected NPs (eg ban on climbing Nth Head, and Balls Pyramid).
>
>Like U-tube instructional videos that amount to death on a stick...


Shit. Make up your mind Rod. Is the world getting too safe, or too dangerous.
widewetandslippery
28-Jun-2016
10:34:17 PM
Rod says "like" he has been on facebook a lot lately;)
Wendy
29-Jun-2016
11:49:05 AM
I'm a mixed bag of stuck in my ways and every modern thing I can get.

I love the EDK and use it almost exclusively. I'll chuck a second one if the rope are different sizes although in practice I haven't seen them slip other than an initial tightening.

I almost never use a back up on a simple abseil. I'll chuck one on if I have to faff with gear or the rope or I"m not sure where to find the next rap point. Ill use whatever is going - a normal prussic, a french or a klemheist depending on what length sling or prussic I have available. They all work fine if you adjust them to the right length to not ride up into your belay device.

The extended belay device/PAS or daisy chain combo is great on long multipitch raps. Easy back up, clip in, easy control of device, even further out of the way for hair/clothes etc to get stuck in. Despite its advantages, I don't both with it the rest of the time because I feel perfectly safe on a normal set up.

I really don't like PAS type things for trad climbing. I see people tending to clip into just one bit of gear with them and also to have them loose so you would shock load them if you fell onto them. I use the rope. It's already there, quick, easy, adjustable, dynamic. They have some use sport climbing (if you actually equalise them to both bolts) for quick clip in and re thread but I still don't bother. Quickdraws or slings do the job just fine as well. Who wants to have something extra wrapped around their waist or between their legs anyway?

Cordelettes are great if you are leading through. I use them for guiding or any time when I am the only leader. Quick, equalised belay with a single clip in point that every one can go straight into (with their rope not a bloody PAS!), no need for changing ends or rearranging belay. If I am swapping leads, I will just use the rope. Less to carry and generally more flexible than a cordellete.

The 2 changes I made many years ago now is that I belay a second from the anchor whenever possible and a use an auto locking device almost exclusively. I hate it when situations such as low anchors mean that I have to belay off my harness. I use a reverso type device for double ropes and a cinch for single ropes. I lead belay single ropes all the time with a cinch as well. Reasons - a mixture of safety, comfort, ease of initiating rescue or assistance measures, convenience.

Lightweight gear! I love modern gear. Completely worth replacing my heavy old stuff from 1991. And linkcams. They rock. A triple set of them has replaced my camalots. I know almost everyone else thinks they are dodgy - but I have been using them for more than 5 years now with no failures and definitely no Monteith like cam explosions. They just need to be placed such that there is no potential for torque on the lobes and extended when necessary to avoid them walking.

I learnt in the time honoured dodgy fashion of uni clubs and random people met at crags and like most of us was lucky to survive a range of stupid ideas, poor judgements and general lack of any skills whatsoever long enough to be actually competent. SInce then I have been a massive fan of beginners getting a good solid grounding in the basics, taking their time progressing in order to build up skills and strength and develop enough judgement so that when they do start climbing with randoms they can assess whether the person is a good choice of climbing partner or not. The idea that we all survived it and everyone should have that experience belongs with other "when I was a lad" type ideas. Modern instruction strategies are great and dramatically reduce the number of people dong dumb things at the crag.

Cafes and comfortable accomodation! I am glad I can afford these luxuries now and then. Dirt bagging was fun at the time but my middle age appreciates comfort and convenience.


technogeekery
29-Jun-2016
12:35:26 PM
On 27/06/2016 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>Are you trying to start a fight?

Nah - just this conversation

Some great replies and perspectives, thanks.

M9 - is your gout playing up? :P Thought you might have SOMETHING that has changed for the better in your illustrious climbing career. Check out the instructional videos on AMGA for something a bit better than death on a stick - I'd have loved to be able to access these when I was a kid. https://amga.com/tag/climbing-fundamentals-video-series/

Wendy - some great points. Yes, the survival stories from our youth makes for fun campfire stories, but the line between character building and death by dumbness is very fine and often down to luck. I'm a big believer in paying qualified people for good advice / instruction.

Eduardo Slabofvic
29-Jun-2016
5:41:21 PM
On 29/06/2016 technogeekery wrote:
>On 27/06/2016 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>>Are you trying to start a fight?
>
>Nah - just this conversation
>

OK then.

I started out tying in with a double figure 8 knot. I can remember being so pumped sometimes that I couldn't untie after falling.

I was shown the double bowline and have used it exclusively for well over 30 years.

I know that because I use a bowline that I will die one day; but ......

ChuckNorris
30-Jun-2016
7:01:03 PM
I thought we sorted this out ages ago.

http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=Display&ForumID=6&MessageID=4927&Replies=1

I think there are also some gems on how to extend rope life through mindfulness or maybe that was an equally edifying thread at the time

Eduardo Slabofvic
30-Jun-2016
10:47:58 PM
On 30/06/2016 Stugang wrote:
>I thought we sorted this out ages ago.
>
>http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=Display&ForumID=6&MessageID=4927&Replies
>1
>
>I think there are also some gems on how to extend rope life through mindfulness
>or maybe that was an equally edifying thread at the time

Those were the days
Jayford4321
1-Jul-2016
9:35:03 AM
>Those were the days

R U trying 2 start a fight my fiend.
One Day Hero
1-Jul-2016
3:07:11 PM
On 29/06/2016 technogeekery wrote:
>I'm a big believer in
>paying qualified people for good advice / instruction.

The older and crustier I get, the more this idea annoys me. A lot of the skills needed in climbing seem to be based on problem solving and judgement. Can you really teach that stuff? I think that too much instruction might just allow talentless arseclowns access to more remote locations in which to have their accident.
One Day Hero
1-Jul-2016
3:38:20 PM
I haven't changed much of what I do, because nothing particularly useful has been invented in the 20 years I've been climbing.

-Daisy chains/pas things are for uni-club goobers, and always have been

-All the jizzing on about rigging belays has been going forever, and nothing has changed. If anything, I take less care with equalisation (now that its been proven not to work), and more care with not falling back onto the belay (but I never did factor 2 much anyway). Just do whatever you do faster and with less faff, simple!

-Grigri, atc, whatever. If my partner sucks and spends half the day hanging on the rope, I wish I brought an autolock. If they are awesome and stroll everything, I wish I brought the atc. There is no right answer.

-The main trick I've learned is to look better than you are by having shit wired. I used to see hardmen (e.g. Fants and Mikl) fly up hardish things without resting, getting the gear right first time every time. My response at the time was "gee, I wish I had the skills to read routes that quickly"......now I know, just climb the bloody thing twenty times, put the #3 wire in the same spot you always put the #3 wire.

-Comfort and convenience makes you go soft. Eventually we'll all go soft, but I try to sleep in the dirt and do uncomfortable things to delay the inevitable.

ChuckNorris
1-Jul-2016
7:41:28 PM
On 30/06/2016 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>On 30/06/2016 Stugang wrote:
>>I thought we sorted this out ages ago.
>>
>>http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=Display&ForumID=6&MessageID=4927&Replie
>
>>1
>>
>>I think there are also some gems on how to extend rope life through mindfulness
>>or maybe that was an equally edifying thread at the time
>
>Those were the days

Funny you should say that as I was thinking of necromancing the Fukwit Of The Week Award after midweek session at Burnley this week.
One Day Hero
1-Jul-2016
9:15:41 PM
On 1/07/2016 stugang wrote:
>Funny you should say that as I was thinking of necromancing the Fukwit
>Of The Week Award after midweek session at Burnley this week.

Do it, I'm sure its way better material than Goatse. Goatse wasn't a fukwit, just dumber than shit, but you can't expect too much from a goat.
simey
1-Jul-2016
10:03:21 PM
On 29/06/2016 Wendy wrote:
>I'm a mixed bag of stuck in my ways and every modern thing I can get...
>...blah, blah, blah
>...blah, blah, blah
>...blah, blah, blah

Hey Wendy, I am just writing to say that I don't disagree with everything you say... in fact I pretty much agree with all of your post. (Re: Linkcams - I don't have much personal experience but I can see where you are coming from).

NOTE: I would just like to reassure Chockstone readers that Wendy's next post will most likely offer something that I disagree with and life will return to normal.



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