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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

Author
Good safety thread on abseiling/rappeling.
mikllaw
10/09/2013
8:49:58 PM
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1662153/Rappelling-Be-Vigilant
220 posts to make you so scared you'll never rap again

I'd also add, it's amazing what your rope can pull down with it

BlankSlab
11/09/2013
12:08:44 PM
Well worth the read. Im sure many members on here have rapped off some interesting and some less "confidence inspiring" things.
mikllaw
11/09/2013
7:02:20 PM
I once pulled a rope down through a fixed sling with moderate drag, I pulled about 3m before the rope came down, I assume that the sling melted through. I am now cautious about using different rope diameters, put the knot on the skiny side to jamb it.

I've heard of people clipping into the long tails on an EDK, but didn't die (saw it before thye unclipped). I now tie 2 EDK's with a short tail.

singersmith
12/09/2013
12:30:37 PM
On 11/09/2013 mikllaw wrote:
>I once pulled a rope down through a fixed sling with moderate drag, I pulled
>about 3m before the rope came down, I assume that the sling melted through.
> I am now cautious about using different rope diameters, put the knot on
>the skiny side to jamb it.
>

I've done the same thing and blew the anchor. Doing a new route in Indian Creek and we thought that since we were just rapping once that we'd thread a piece of webbing and come back the next day and replace it with a proper anchor. Moderate drag and it was unbelievable how easily the webbing snapped.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
12/09/2013
12:50:00 PM
I read the linked thread.

Maybe I am complacent* because I found half of it to be empathic posts, and not big heaps of real 'meat on the bone' safety type stuff. The really interesting stuff (for me), were the first hand 'trip report' style of experiences passed on, particularly some of the links within it.

(*Stuff I consider should be common sense and that I take for granted?)

The main message I got out of it, is that it is truly amazing what some other people will take for granted regarding their safety; and that the next generation seem to be re-inventing the wheel, unless older climbers (like Jim Donini), pass on their hard-won wisdom, and even then, ... they sometimes don't get things right! ~> see next pic. He was part of a three person team that couldn't pull this rope down...





I also loved this pic of a canyoning anchor, from one of the links...

... I would be burying that rock as deep as possible, before abseiling off it. ;-)





On 12/09/2013 singersmith wrote:
>On 11/09/2013 mikllaw wrote:
>>I once pulled a rope down through a fixed sling with moderate drag, I pulled
>>about 3m before the rope came down, I assume that the sling melted through.
(snip)
>
>I've done the same thing and blew the anchor. Doing a new route in Indian
>Creek and we thought that since we were just rapping once that we'd thread
>a piece of webbing and come back the next day and replace it with a proper
>anchor. Moderate drag and it was unbelievable how easily the webbing snapped.

Mikl / singer; What size / type of tape, and how new was it?

I tend to carry and use for abseil anchors (if necessary), prusik cord. So far I have not had issues melting/cutting through them when pulling the rope/s, however if I ever come across something similar insitu, I consider them to be one-off use items and wouldn't re-use it without replacing same.
mikllaw
12/09/2013
1:30:59 PM
On 12/09/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>So far I have not had issues melting/cutting through them when pulling
>the rope/s, however if I ever come across something similar insitu, I consider them to be one-off use items and wouldn't re-use it without replacing same.

To me it rammed home the danger of rapping on different diameter ropes
singersmith
12/09/2013
5:21:15 PM

>Mikl / singer; What size / type of tape, and how new was it?
>

Didn't feel like typing out all the boring details but I suppose for safety issues it is a good service.

Was new supertape, the kind everybody uses for their chalk bag belt (9/16", I think- the thick stuff) in case they ever need to leave it for an anchor. We were a lot more concerned about the tree we were rapping off than the webbing; I don't remember why we were such knuckleheads about leaving a biner or two since we were coming back anyway.

The rap went over a rolling edge and down into a chimney. At the bottom there was actually a fair bit of drag so we were going to do the trick where one guy keeps his rap device on the pull side and stays 8-10 meters off the ground and rides it down. The other guy pulls down on the other side and stretches to rope out as much as possible then releases it such that the rope recoils back up and produces slack at the anchor. Since we were in a chimney we were both able to get to the same point around 8m off the base. We pulled through maybe a couple of meters when the thing blew and we both decked. The worst bit was that a log and rocks came down with it.

Strangely, when we got to the ground a bit dinged up and feeling sorry for ourselves everybody down there was pissed off with us and giving us the "WTF!?! Why didn't you guys yell ROCK!?" Turns out that a VW bus size block had come off the top while we were up there, but at least 50m away from us and around the corner and they all assumed we had trundled it.

Never went back to that spot.
Drake
16/09/2013
3:54:49 PM
> He was part of a three person team that couldn't pull this rope down...

Take another look at the photo of the rope that hung up. It looks like the rope was threaded through the left chain, then through the right chain, and then BACK through the left chain. I don't see how this could happen if the rope was threaded normally.

It makes sense that a rope could hang-up in this position, as the chain links are acting like an improvised stitch plate.
huwj
16/09/2013
10:04:00 PM
On 11/09/2013 mikllaw wrote:
>I've heard of people clipping into the long tails on an EDK, but didn't
>die

I did this last year, descending from a big day in the mountains. Eighteen hours after leaving the hut, it was pitch black, cold and we were pretty screwed. I tied an euro with long tails, clipped one of the correct strands and the tail of the other. Wind was howling, vis was shit, the rope was blowing everywhere...

I don't think tying two euros with short tails solves the problem. Two euros are no safer than one. And even if they were, no matter what you do there is always scope to fvck it up.

I always use the same setup choose a tried-and-tested system that makes sense to you, stick to it and always check everything twice. Don't get distracted at the point of committing and stay clipped to the anchor until you're fully set-up and you've bounce-tested the system.

mikllaw
17/09/2013
6:42:50 PM
On 16/09/2013 huwj wrote:
>
>I don't think tying two euros with short tails solves the problem. Two euros are no safer than one.
- I think it solves that problem of clipping the free ends. I'd like to do some work on EDKs rolling, particularly with new and mismatched rope sizes

>And even if they were, no matter what you do there is always scope to fvck it up.
-too true

>I always use the same setup choose a tried-and-tested system that makes
>sense to you, stick to it and always check everything twice.
- good advice, you should be able to do it in the dark

>...stay clipped to the anchor until you're fully set-up and you've bounce-tested the system.
- more excellent advice
>

IdratherbeclimbingM9
25/06/2014
11:20:40 AM
X-link to another thread, where some further discussion has happened re the stuck-rope (in the chains photo above), in this thread.







Post edit:


Under the floorboards (in the future), DMWdesign posts a link containing the following statement;

>The Overhand Knot with tails leading performed best for tying two ropes together in the rope pull down tests.
>Wet ropes required double the load to pull down.

I have noticed that 'preferred' rope joining knots, have waxed and waned over the years, but one thing hasn't, and that is there will always be exceptions to standard results/expectations. The trick is to not have those exceptions ending up killing you or anyone else.

When abseil ropes are pulled, they can get snagged in many remarkable ways despite whatever knot is used to join them, and competent adventurers are knowledgeable in self rescue techniques using equipment at hand in such situations.

Re loads applied.
When the unexpected happens, the loads involved can often be a lot higher during any retrieval jiggery pokery, and wet ropes add to that again!

Adopt a system, know it thoroughly so that checking routines continue to work even in adverse and fatigue situations, & deal with any snafu's by pre-empting them wherever possible.
=============================================================================================================
DMWdesign
30/06/2014
9:29:09 AM
On 11/09/2013 mikllaw wrote:

>I've heard of people clipping into the long tails on an EDK, but didn't
>die (saw it before thye unclipped). I now tie 2 EDK's with a short tail.

just noticed this post
can you explain how they did this - clipping into the long tails?

the standard knot I use for joining 2 equal ropes is the EDK with 150- 200mm long tails.

the following is an interesting read:
http://www.bwrs.org.au/sites/default/inline-files/abstract.pdf


Dave_S
30/06/2014
10:48:31 AM
On 30/06/2014 DMWdesign wrote:
>
>can you explain how they did this - clipping into the long tails?

I can only guess that they must have been using tails that were a meter or two long. But even then, you'd think you'd notice that the rope was a lot lighter than normal when you went to clip in to it.

Eduardo Slabofvic
30/06/2014
12:26:55 PM
Excuse my ignorance but, is EDK = European Death Knot = a double overhand?
BBSR
30/06/2014
12:46:30 PM
On 30/06/2014 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>Excuse my ignorance but, is EDK = European Death Knot = a double overhand?

EDK= European Death Knot.

A double overhand is different I think. I believe the EDK is an overhand bend or overhand flat knot.

Eduardo Slabofvic
30/06/2014
2:08:50 PM
On 30/06/2014 BBSR wrote:
>On 30/06/2014 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>>Excuse my ignorance but, is EDK = European Death Knot = a double overhand?
>
>EDK= European Death Knot.
>
>A double overhand is different I think. I believe the EDK is an overhand
>bend or overhand flat knot.

.... or, as my girlfriend calls it, "the double granny"?
martym
30/06/2014
2:18:13 PM
On 30/06/2014 BBSR wrote:
>On 30/06/2014 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>>Excuse my ignorance but, is EDK = European Death Knot = a double overhand?
>
>EDK= European Death Knot.
>
>A double overhand is different I think. I believe the EDK is an overhand
>bend or overhand flat knot.

According to Wikipedia:
One-sided overhand bend; otherwise known as:
"Offset Water Knot, European Death Knot (EDK), Offset overhand bend, Flat overhand bend, Thumb knot, Thumb bend, Creeler's knot, Openhand knot"


Apparently this is what a "Double Overhand" looks like:

Eduardo Slabofvic
30/06/2014
3:04:49 PM
On 30/06/2014 martym wrote:
>
>
>According to Wikipedia: otherwise known as:
>Offset Water Knot, European Death Knot (EDK), Offset overhand bend,
>Flat overhand bend, Thumb knot, Thumb bend, Creeler's knot, Openhand knot"
> >
that's what I mean by a "double granny"

Doug
Online Now
30/06/2014
4:10:48 PM
On 30/06/2014 martym wrote:
>
>According to Wikipedia:


Hmmm. Might a more traditional source of knot-tying wisdom be more ... well ... authoritative?
Wollemi
30/06/2014
11:01:23 PM
On 30/06/2014 Doug wrote:
>On 30/06/2014 martym wrote:
>>
>>According to Wikipedia:
>
>
>Hmmm. Might a more traditional source of knot-tying wisdom be more ... well ... authoritative?

Maybe. Are you able to supply your source of knowledge for staying safe on rope - and why you believe it? Here's one I don't have a problem with...

So I go to MartyM's link; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-sided_overhand_bend

And I am reassured - as the sensible 5-paragraph article clearly links five references. You hint at disappointment at Wikipedia... because? Or are you yet another person who blithely dismisses the usefulness of Wikipedia whether or not used sensibly?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-sided_overhand_bend#References



1. The Art of Knotting and Splicing (4th ed.) - as published by the the United States Government - Naval Institute Press,

And you can see the relevant portion written at pages 52 and 53 were you to seek out that book as authorised by the United States government. How authoritative do you want to get?



2. "On Knots and Swamps", in Turner, J.C.; van de Griend, P., History and Science of Knots, K&E Series on Knots and Everything. Singapore: World Scientific Publishing.

World Scientific Publishing holds the rights (since 1970) to publish the complete set of Nobel Lectures from 1901. Why would any person doubt their manner of collating fact?



3. Ashley, Clifford W. (1944), The Ashley Book of Knots, New York: Doubleday.

The Wikipedia entry for this book, if I may so cite it, reminds us - quite sensibly - of its age and of its relevance; 'The Ashley Book of Knots was published in the days of natural fiber cordage; the commentary on some knots may fail to address their behavior when tied in modern synthetic fiber ropes.'



4. Tom Moyer (1999-11-09), Rope and Gear Testing: Pull Tests of the "Euro Death-Knot"

Clicking on the link here in the references takes you http://user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html - which has accident reports and pull-test data. The evidence for more traditional source(s) of knot-tying wisdom is found thus;

Further Reading and Test Data on flat-knots:

Preferred Knots for Use in Canyons - from Bushwalker's Wilderness Rescue Research Page. Long paper with pull-test data on a number of knots used to join ropes, including measurement of the force to drag the knots across edges. The author concludes that the flat-overhand is his preferred choice and that the flat-figure-eight is dangerous.

Chockstone Tech Tips/JoinRopes - good pictures of knots and discussion. No testing. They express a preference for the figure-eight follow-through, and show the flat-figure-eight knot with a skull-and-crossbones.

Edelrid tests - (in German, with much of it translated into English). Test data on three knots: the flat-overhand, the double-fisherman's tied as a flat-knot (photo at right from their page), and on a new type of flat-knot. He translates it as "Triple Fisherman's", but it's not. The flat-double-fisherman's didn't invert at all in his tests. Cool! People have asked me about it, but I haven't done any tests.



5. The Outdoor Knot Book, Seattle: The Mountaineers Books.
You can probably buy a copy here; http://www.mountaineersbooks.org/Assets/ClientPages/media.aspx

And like The Mountaineers, Wikipedia is a non-profit organisation based on community activity and education. The policies of Wikipedia combine verifiability and a neutral point of view. As does Tom Moyer for descriptions above at reference 4. - citing one German and two Australian web-pages, inclusive of the one you are looking at just now. Or is Chockstone not to be considered a collective of knowledge, and hence not authoritative enough for us to remain safe on rope, too?


If not, some technical data about staying safe on rope is here;

* http://user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/
- a page dating from April 2011 talking about Force Calculations (and related software), rescue physics, and simulation of rescue belays.

* http://caves.org/section/vertical/nh/52/SimulationOfClimbing&RescueBelays.pdf
- page 5 shows forces on an ATC when abseiling, and when belaying

There are 20 messages in this topic.

 

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