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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 9. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 168
Author
Bolting in the Warrumbungles
PeteK
16/05/2011
2:02:26 PM
While people are on the topic of trad routes being made more “user friendly”. I was rather surprised, and seriously pissed off, to find this weekend that bolts have been added to some of the belays on Cornerstone Rib and Lieben. The Bungles has always been home to ground up, long and committing climbs but in the last year the number of bolts in the park must have doubled or tripled with the addition of new rap bolted sport routes and “direct starts”. So much for adventure climbing…..

nmonteith
16/05/2011
2:14:15 PM
[begin hypocritical message]

Cornerstone Rib & Lieban are full TRAD routes! Why do they need bolted anchors? I'm totally in agreement with you on being pissed with those additions. Both routes have great trad belays and have been climbed by hundreds of people for the last 40 years and trad belays are certainly a key component of doing those classic Australian routes.

I don't believe there have been any sport routes established there though? My route from last year (Verdun) does contain a lot of bolts, but if trad was available I used that instead. Every pitch has extensive trad. I would say trad protects at least half the climb if not more. I did install bolted belays though - but that's on a new route not an established route so I guess it was my own prerogative. I placed them mainly so people could rap retreat the route if they couldn't commit to the pitches above. It's not the sort of climb where you can pull on bolts or trad gear to bypass cruxes.
undercling mike
16/05/2011
2:30:56 PM
I did Lieben at easter last year and I'm a bit surprised and saddened to hear that bolts have been added. I do remember one bolt at a belay on Lieben when I did it, a rusty old carrot sticking about 5cm out of the rock... I found the climb to be an awesome experience, run out and committing in places, certainly eye opening as to the achievement of the first ascentionists. We found what we considered adequate trad anchors at the belays and I don't think bolted anchors are appropriate.

Andrew_M
16/05/2011
2:34:22 PM
This was done just before Easter by a chockstone regular who will undoubtedly put his hand up shortly. The argument as I understand it is that the bolts are for rap retreats from Leiben and Cornerstone Rib. I was up there at Easter and wanted to look at the bolts in person but didn't manage to get on the routes. This is a completely different case to bolting a poxy sandpit on an obscure cliff next to Piddington. Generations of climbers have done Cornerstone Rib/Leiben safely without any bolts.

How long the bolts remain will be interesting...someone who I told turned instantaneously purple, started spluttering and immediately started looking for a crowbar.


tnd
16/05/2011
3:00:51 PM
On 16/05/2011 Andrew_M wrote:
>...The argument as I understand it is that the bolts
>are for rap retreats from Leiben and Cornerstone Rib....
If someone needs to retreat from these naturally protected adventure routes then they can leave gear in place.

>How long the bolts remain will be interesting...someone who I told turned
>instantaneously purple, started spluttering and immediately started looking
>for a crowbar.
A crowbar isn't necessary.

To remove stainless carrots, use a 12 inch plumber's (Stillson) wrench with a tube extension and turn anti-clockwise. You'll break the glue bond quite easily and you can then unscrew.

To remove recessed ring bolts, use a hammer and chisel to carefully chip away enough of the surrounding rock (not much required) to allow the ring to rotate. Now use a bar through the hole, or the wrench mentioned above, to rotate and extract the bolt.

To remove U-bolts, cut through the steel at the top of the U with a hacksaw. Now turn each shaft with the wrench to break the glue bond and twist out.

Andrew_M
16/05/2011
3:16:41 PM
On 16/05/2011 tnd wrote:
>A crowbar isn't necessary.

It was a metaphorical crowbar, but good advice anyway!
mikllaw
Online Now
16/05/2011
3:20:11 PM
That's me!
As requested by Bryden, 2 rap anchors were placed on Cornerstone rib, one in the gully below the crux pitch (2 pitches up) where there was about 10m of extremely rotted rope connecting various poor anchors left from some epic retreat. A bolt and shackle was placed on the edge of this gully. It probably won't be used as belay point.

The next anchor up has all possible anchors well back from the edge and pulling a rope down from here would be hard without leaving 3 slings to extend. A bolt was placed here also. I could have placed it a long way away so this wasn't usable as an anchor, but that seemd a bit silly, so yes, you can incorporate it in the belay.

All the higher anchors are fine for retreat as they are on smaller ledges and you'd just have to leave some gear behind.

John Croker may be able to post a shot of the pile of tatt cut off these various rap anchors. It half filled my daypack.

bw
16/05/2011
3:43:37 PM
On 16/05/2011 tnd wrote:

>A crowbar isn't necessary.
>
>To remove stainless carrots, use a 12 inch plumber's (Stillson) wrench


cripes! a stillson! how about a lightweight chopping rig for these adventure chops!
gfdonc
16/05/2011
3:52:55 PM
I won't comment about Cornerstone, but Flight of the Phoenix probably deserves the same treatment at the end of p2.
We cut a lot of tat off there 3 years ago and replaced it with some new cord, but the situation probably just gets worse over time. Two bolts with rings would prevent an unsightly and recurring litter problem.
mikllaw
Online Now
16/05/2011
4:08:14 PM
On 16/05/2011 gfdonc wrote:
>I won't comment about Cornerstone, but Flight of the Phoenix probably deserves
>the same treatment at the end of p2.

last month Monique and I left a doubled sling, made of 10 mm rope inside 1" tape with a burly shackle hanging off it. This should resist UV very well, (I saw these used a lot at Seneca Rocks).
You might need a knife to remove some of the older tatt from here though.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
16/05/2011
8:55:44 PM
On 16/05/2011 mikllaw wrote:
>That's me!
>As requested by Bryden, 2 rap anchors were placed on Cornerstone rib,
>one in the gully below the crux pitch (2 pitches up) where there was about
>10m of extremely rotted rope connecting various poor anchors left from
>some epic retreat. A bolt and shackle was placed on the edge of this gully.
>It probably won't be used as belay point.
>
>The next anchor up has all possible anchors well back from the edge and
>pulling a rope down from here would be hard without leaving 3 slings to
>extend. A bolt was placed here also. I could have placed it a long way
>away so this wasn't usable as an anchor, but that seemd a bit silly, so
>yes, you can incorporate it in the belay.
>
>All the higher anchors are fine for retreat as they are on smaller ledges
>and you'd just have to leave some gear behind.
>
>John Croker may be able to post a shot of the pile of tatt cut off these
>various rap anchors. It half filled my daypack.

So, now we have tatt to blame for 'easyifying' routes?

The recent word of other Chocky posters comes readily to mind.
"Pathetic".

I have removed tatt a number of times (and booty) from that retreat off Cornerstone Rib.
It isn't hard to do, and if more did it, then the climbing experience on it would be better for all.

As far as Lieben goes (mentioned in o.p.), the second pitch usually sorts the wannabees and they don't commit, so can still abseil off while within a ropelength of the ground. Anyone who can climb the second pitch I would expect to have the skills and tenacity to complete the route; so if having 'easyified' retreat off it too (as justification for 'boltaholicing'), ... it is once again, pathetic*.
(*Thanks tnd/spicelab).

Post edit:
What is with Bryden requesting this?
He put the route up in 1962 for goodness sake; how long does a classic need to exist, to have 'stood the test of time'?
If recent posts indicating such action on climbing forums are indicative of the current trend in Australian climbing today, then things are not good in our climbing world.
Kuu (on this site), put up a Gd 8 variant around the difficulty of the crux (Gd 14), on that route in 1962 also, so what is it with this next generation being pandered too?
One Day Hero
16/05/2011
9:17:22 PM
Bugger! I prefer it when things get retro'd by folk I don't like as its much easier to maintain righteous rage.

I reckon bail bolts on these routes are a bit silly, given that 50yrs worth of sketching bumblies have managed to sort themselves out ok..................but Mike is so nice that its hard to stay mad at him for long. Maybe he could start outsourcing retrobolting work to somebody annoying?
cogsy
16/05/2011
9:21:44 PM
On 16/05/2011 One Day Hero wrote:

>Mike is so nice that its hard to stay mad at him for long. Maybe he could
>start outsourcing retrobolting work to somebody annoying?


You putting up your hand ODH? ;)))
One Day Hero
16/05/2011
9:30:31 PM
I think davidn is better qualified for the job
gfdonc
16/05/2011
9:31:55 PM
Just wanted to be clear - FOTP is a compulsory rap to get to the start of the third pitch, not for bailing.

nmonteith
16/05/2011
9:40:58 PM
On 16/05/2011 gfdonc wrote:
>Just wanted to be clear - FOTP is a compulsory rap to get to the start
>of the third pitch, not for bailing.

Can't you just traverse across down lower? The rap down bit seems a bit odd. When we did the route we totally stuffed up the start and climbed two very direct pitches straight up to the belay where that rap puts you. About grade 20?
jrc
16/05/2011
11:02:42 PM
1. Judging from the great pile of slings on the old piton on Cornerstone, it would appear that retreat from this point is a fairly common occurrence. So it's probably quite handy to have an abseil anchor of some substance at this point. Its location is not particularly useful as a belay; the crux belay for example is far better accomplished by wrapping the rope around the rocky bollard (as we did) at the start of the pitch.
2. No bolts were placed on Lieben by our party.
3. A bolt anchor was placed at the top of a new 50m route (Zombie Love, 20) which is on the wall below the second pitch of Lieben. The chimney at the top of ZL leads up to the second pitch of Lieben, so you could do ZL as a (fairly) direct start to Lieben. Zombie Love has some bolts on it in the crux section; the lower part is protectable with nuts & cams.
4. FOTP via the guidebook route involves the abseil. I had thought Steve (&Joe G) had put a bolt at the abseil point in 2007 but we couldn't find it. Mike's supersling is a pretty good alternative, though a proper rap station would be a lot nicer to look at from below and a whole lot more durable. Feel free to reuse the 15 year old carabiner (stamped JC) that Richard left on this sling. Feel free to back it up, too! If you don't like it collect it and please give it back to me.
5. I have done FOTP a few times by climbing round the buttress as NM mentions, if you get it'right' it is about grade 18 for a move or 2. Fairly well protected. Means you dont have to mess about abseiling.

kuu
17/05/2011
8:19:36 AM
On 16/05/2011 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
> (snip)
>Kuu (on this site), put up a Gd 8 variant around the difficulty of the
>crux (Gd 14), on that route in 1962 also, so what is it with this next
>generation being pandered too?

Just for clarification - Trevor W and I conceived and climbed the route (bottom to top) one Easter, prior to the ascent by Ted Batty and Bryden Allen. Trev and I were intimidated by the crux and found a way round it by traversing out left onto the North Face then came back onto the rib which was followed all the way to the top.

Subsequently (it may have been the following Easter?) Ted and Bryden climbed the route direct. The new climbing they contributed was the crux pitch which was a praiseworthy addition to the route and ensured it became the enjoyable (and committing?) outing it is today.
gfdonc
17/05/2011
2:23:13 PM
On 16/05/2011 jrc wrote:
>4. FOTP via the guidebook route involves the abseil. I had thought Steve
>(&Joe G) had put a bolt at the abseil point in 2007 but we couldn't find
>it.

No we never did, just removed tat and put a fresh sling there. We rebolted the top and bottom raps from Crater Bluff as well as the rap anchors at the top of the gully on Beloughery.

For the record, here's the tat:



citationx
17/05/2011
3:40:48 PM
On 17/05/2011 gfdonc wrote:
>No we never did, just removed tat and put a fresh sling there. We rebolted
><snip> the top of the gully on Beloughery.
>

I did question people about that. Why they weren't placed much higher on belougery and then use the second rap station half way down (or three raps to the ground). Getting down from the top of belougery to the rap station was death-central. My girlfriend was petrified getting there, i had to have her on belay (once i'd reached it, i was willing enough to neck it but still felt a bit uncomfortable).
It seemed quite easy to trip and fall down the gully and slide through the gap at the bottom into open air. I think it was john (jrc) that was telling me back at balor that in actual fact there was/still is a single bolt somewhere up near the top that climbers used to use as a rap point to get to.... the rap point.
Not that i'm necessarily criticising (though i guess by posting this I kinda am), why wasn't anything done about a rap much higher up belougery?

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