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AlanD 13-Jul-2005 9:29:57 PM	My opinion for what it's worth .... Retailers and sponsored climbers can and do make valuable comments, but how they comment needs to be controlled in a manner that maintains the good relationship that exists between the site sponsor and the owners of this site. Unsolicited threads by sponsored climber or retailers shouldn't be permitted. Replies to other peoples questions should be permitted as long as links to the sponsors or retailers site are not included. The user name should have the word "sponsored" or "retailer" added to the end. Their profile should include the brands that are involved in their sponsorship or retailing. But the name of the sponsor (unless sponsored by a manufacturer) or retailer should not be included. You would need to check each post a manufacturer, and judge it each time. Retailers, should be permitted to defend themselves, if their company receives unfavourable comments, in doing so, they would obviously declare the company they work for.
mockmockmock 13-Jul-2005 9:42:27 PM	Here is an interesting C&P direct from the retailers page. *** Visit, phone (03) 5441 8886, or fax Steve Morris at 38 Neale St, Bendigo for all your climbing gear. He has the best prices in Australia, at least from my experience. Plus he's on for a chat if you need qualified advice, or just want to yak about climbing in general. *** I appreciate RH is the sponsor of the site, I appreciate they have certain rights to the site, but every other mentioned retailer gets about 5 words.. " They have some stuff". The only thing missing is the pop up ads for RH.. They sure get a big bang for their advertising buck in general. A cynical person might believe there was more on offer than just the site maintenance fees. Good thing I am not either of two things, a cynical person or a cyber world geek. Mankybus, I heard stories a while ago that there was a ' gentlemans agreement' involved with Qwank where retailers would not self promote, can you confirm that? I heard that when P started popping up with specials and advertising (with permission). Oh and nice post BTW, M. Again I ask ( less subtle) if something is not a stock line or not available from RH, how does that conflict? If I want a beetroot, don't tell me I should buy a radish because it's still red. This thread seems to raise a few hackels it seems... this is good for our society or else Kim IL Jong will just delete the thread. Last point. what happened to Hex. He's been M.I.A.
rolsen 13-Jul-2005 10:03:58 PM	My 2 cents, I think sponsored climbers (which I will never be) should be able to give their ideas and experiences with all products. If they are providing misleading (or extremely biased) information then other knowledgeble climbers should call them on it - as it is said above it is their reputations that are at stake. This is a similar scenario to those who hide behind false identities and then deleted their posts when outed and it gives rise to the same issues. I don't think a "sponsored climber" identifier is needed. It is "dicky" I agree that we don't want posts where someone asks "where can I get..." and 30 stores from around australia post their prices, website and phone numbers. It should be deleted - or edited and left to identify the spamer (individual or store) and shame them out of the practice. Links to where you can find products that are identified as difficult to get should be allowed, but other product availability requests could be linked to the australian distributor rather than or in addition to the manufacturer. I also think RH gets enough exposure, if there are existing agreements/contract about posting links to other stores then Mike and RH should make that explicitly clear. Mike: The link referral issue can be resolved using the "same system" some wikis use, I know flexwiki has info on how that works with the google crawlers. Richard
armyiain 14-Jul-2005 12:02:57 AM	My 2 quick cents I've posted a couple of times before on different forums letting people know about big sales that some local shops have had - I am a poor uni student (sniff sniff) and dont work for them - I've just been trying to, um, 'share the love' so to speak. Its going to become pretty obviously quickly if someone is abusing this system just to advertise their goods. Big companies like MD and Paddies I dont think could be bothered. And I know many people (inc myself) who shop from all over the place, normally wherever they can get what they want cheapest. Normally that is one of the big stores like Rock Hardware or Pinnacle (or a local MD/Paddies) If someone asks the question 'What about XYZ' most people with an opinion will reply with it, and also where they purchased the kit. There's nothing wrong with climbers letting fellow climbers know about specials. And the community should be able to keep a surreptitious eye on the sponsored climbers - how many are there really???
nmonteith 14-Jul-2005 9:43:46 AM	I just did a quick search through the chocktone.org archives on "pinnaclesports.com". I came up with six blatent plugs for the Pinnacle website by their sponsored climbers, and two other instances of the website being listed in a post by them. This does not include several previous posts that have been deleted in the past. The mods have let slip comments before that on retrospective viewing are just advertising. I recommend that people read some of these... for example... * Pinnacle Sports are now stocking them, pictures and prices available here: (weblink) * Queensland based internet retailer Pinnacle Sports (web link) came to the party with some fantastic prizes * so quick and easy to put on... they seem to perform well in all situations * And I've never heard of anyone saying anything about the Triop Wings other than "I love these shoes"). For further info, please refer to: (web link) * haul up your fancy stickclipper device that is able to REMOVE quickdraws. One such device is the Trango "Squid", soon to be made available in Australia. Refer : (web link) * I currently use CAMP Chunky Chalk which comes in a half kilo bag. I get a few bags at a time. (photo of product!)
manacubus 14-Jul-2005 9:45:13 AM	On 13/07/2005 mockmockmock wrote: >Mankybus, I heard stories a while ago that there was a ' gentlemans agreement' >involved with Qwank where retailers would not self promote, can you confirm >that? I heard that when P started popping up with specials and advertising >(with permission). Oh and nice post BTW, M. I wanted to ensure a clear separation between being qurank webmaster, and being a PS sponsored climber. No special treatment for PS on qurank. Therefore I needed to put into place a system that would work for any and all unsolicited commercial posts. Basically, any unsolicited commercial post must be approved by a moderator first. It must be posted in the For Sale section. It must add value to members (i.e. it would want to be a pretty huge sale). Any deviation from this would result in deletion. So far, there have been about three (?) such posts. Other retailers are welcome to the same treatment if they so wish. Out of interest, in the qurank General Discussion forum right now, you can see a post extolling the virtues of Rock Hardware! (here)
nmonteith 14-Jul-2005 9:51:31 AM	Any publicity is good publicity? (where do i pick up my Pinnacle cheque?)
manacubus 14-Jul-2005 9:54:37 AM	On 14/07/2005 nmonteith wrote: >* I currently use CAMP Chunky Chalk which comes in a half kilo bag. I >get a few bags at a time. >(photo linked to website!) Neil, just because the poll isn't looking good for you, there's no need to spread misinformation. The photo is NOT linked to the website. The photo happens to be on the website, and nobody would be able to tell this without viewing source or looking at the properties of the image. At no time in the post is the retailer mentioned! In addition, I also mentioned in the post another chalk brand that PS doesn't even stock! People can see for themselves here
Mike 14-Jul-2005 9:57:19 AM	On 13/07/2005 mockmockmock wrote: >... but every other mentioned retailer gets about 5 words.. That is because only one other retailer has sent me some text to use, which I was happy to put next to the link (without charge). Like I said before, they need only ask. If someone else wants to take over the maintenance of the links list, feel free to email me. I haven't updated it much in years and it could probably do with an overhaul from someone with enough time to visit all the sites and add new ones. Chockstone has one sponsor. I've had a few offers for more from companies that wouldn't conflict in each others interests, but as I stated years ago when this thing was started, I'd rather not have any ads at all. If I really wanted too I could plaster ads all over every page of the site and probably make, like, $300 a year out of it. Call me old fashioned, but I'd rather have the pages I wrote uncluttered. RH, pays my work (Bendigo IT) a site hosting fee per month. I've been covering the domain name registration fees out of my own pocket. And of course, my time is freely given. I personally hate SPAM with a passion, but can see where people are coming from with their comments about wanting unbaised opinions. I'm just glad Neil is handling the sorting out of the choss from the jugs in that regard and not me.
manacubus 14-Jul-2005 9:59:40 AM	On 14/07/2005 nmonteith wrote: >* Queensland based internet retailer Pinnacle Sports (web link) came to >the >party with some fantastic prizes Sponsoring a comp is a valid way of achieving publicity, in any medium. In this case, PS was only one of the sponsors, and all were mentioned! You're down to four valid examples.
nmonteith 14-Jul-2005 10:03:19 AM	On 14/07/2005 manacubus wrote: >Neil, just because the poll isn't looking good for you, there's no need >to spread misinformation. The photo is NOT linked to the website. The photo >happens to be on the website, and nobody would be able to tell this without >viewing source or looking at the properties of the image. Fair enough. I'll change my post. Picture links do get 'found' by the search function though and by the browsing bots...
dalai 14-Jul-2005 10:05:04 AM	On 13/07/2005 manacubus wrote: >As soon as you start implementing rules >on who can say what and when, we’ve entered a dictatorship. On 14/07/2005 manacubus wrote: >Basically, any unsolicited commercial post must be approved by a moderator >first. Interesting...
manacubus 14-Jul-2005 10:08:20 AM	Yep too true dalai, nice pick up. I guess I do treat users and retail owners differently.
nmonteith 14-Jul-2005 10:08:55 AM	On 14/07/2005 manacubus wrote: >Sponsoring a comp is a valid way of achieving publicity, in any medium. >In this case, PS was only one of the sponsors, and all were mentioned! > >You're down to four valid examples. This is the full text. Sponsors including Rock Hardware... James Kassay's "Infinite Holds" http:// www.infiniteholds.com ... and also Queensland based internet retailer "Pinnacle Sports" http:// www.pinnaclesports.com.au came to the party with some fantastic prizes, which ensured there were some great rewards in each division. How come Rock Hardware gets no link? How come Pinnacle gets a four word intro (Queensland based internet retailer) to its link? It is not just listed with the other sponsors, it it singled out for special treament. At first glance it reads that it was only Pinnacle who supplied 'fantastic prizes' with 'great rewards'. Try again Lee.
manacubus 14-Jul-2005 10:16:00 AM	You'd have to ask Jac why she worded it that way. I imagine the reason she didn't link the text Rock Hardware was because it is linked and plastered on every page of Chockstone. I imagine the four word intro (bound to excite passion and drive heaps of traffic!) to PS was included (I imagine) to introduce a company most users probably hadn't heard of before, much in the same way Infinite Holds was prefixed by James Kassay. If your interpretation was that PS were the only sponsor providing prizes, I can only suggest you re-read the text. You're wrong!
nmonteith 14-Jul-2005 10:17:23 AM	On 14/07/2005 manacubus wrote: >Neil, just because the poll isn't looking good for you, So far half of the voters either don't want it full stop or want full disclosure of the sponsorship in every reply.
The Elk 14-Jul-2005 10:20:46 AM	At the risk of copping spat myself, As a third party having read this thread over the duration it's getting really horrible and spiteful/argumentative between a few parties. It's a horrible thing to read on a public forum. Please save the rest of us from "listening in" to your arguments and spat when we've come in here to check out some mature debate. Take it somewhere else or let it go folks.... life's too short to get petty. And that's what it's looking like...
manacubus 14-Jul-2005 10:22:14 AM	Voters should probably also take into consideration that if sponsored climbers are "singled out" by having "sponsored" tacked on to the end of their username, or some text forcefully added into their post signatures or some such, chances are they will stop posting on Chockstone.
nmonteith 14-Jul-2005 10:26:06 AM	The sad truth is we are best buddies at the crag. Ok, I'll give it a rest. Thanks Em. I'm going on holidays for two weeks - via Brisbane where I am sure I will catch up with Lee. I hope he doesn't organize a posse at the airport arrivals gate! Have fun guys/girls - be good whilst I am away. Neil
manacubus 14-Jul-2005 10:26:42 AM	The Elk is right. I think I'm all steamed out. I'm willing to go back to playing happy families.

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