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lightweight snow camping in Oz


IdratherbeclimbingM9

8-May-2009
1:11:40 PM

On 8/05/2009 dmnz wrote:
>No one I know carries a bivy for comfort. I'ts more a survival/weight
>thing and it doubles as a body bag too...

Comfort is a relative term.
I have not used the bivy bag for serious snow camping, but do use it regularly for motorcycle camping.
Combined with a light tarp I have managed to get by during a week of wet weather camping more than a few times, but it is not ideal.

My concession to greater comfort was to buy a 2nd bivy bag to use if the first becomes too festy during the longer trips!
~> Maybe need to eat some cement for breaky to harden up?
3xheh


nmonteith

8-May-2009
2:35:55 PM

>On 8/05/2009 dmnz wrote:
>>No one I know carries a bivy for comfort. I'ts more a survival/weight
>>thing and it doubles as a body bag too...

On my second NZ mountaineering trip we skipped a step and just bought the body bags instead. Much cheaper than some poncy goretex.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

8-May-2009
4:13:25 PM

>>On 8/05/2009 dmnz wrote:
>>>No one I know carries a bivy for comfort. I'ts more a survival/weight
>>>thing and it doubles as a body bag too...

nmonteith wrote;
>On my second NZ mountaineering trip we skipped a step and just bought
>the body bags instead. Much cheaper than some poncy goretex.

That may work in a snow (cold) environment, but you will wake up wet from your own transpiration in lower altitudes.

In the period that I was debating over buying a 2nd bivy bag I bought a cheapo body-bag to act as an outer raincoat/ground-tarp for my ~~poncy~~ u-beaut gortex bag; ... with the idea being that I could set up camp and keep the majority of rain off the bedding and additional personal effects by zipping them in the body-bag while I wandered about in the rain sorting other stuff. This worked somewhat, but I noticed water ingress through the zipper.
Went to bed, and during the night it rained harder so I zipped up the bodybag flap that I had been using as a tarp (thrown back off the bivy bag), while the rain had stopped.

Although the goretex kept me dry from the puddles I had trapped the lack of breathability caused by the bodybag lying on the goretex made my transpiration to be trapped and consequently the sleeping bag became quite damp.
This is a bugger early in a wet trip as it is hard to dry stuff out once wet.

I came to the conclusion that the bodybag would have been better rigged as a hutchie in that circumstance.

Bodybags are still useful though, as I find them good for keeping mud off the u-beaut goretex and can simply roll up the bedding (still inside) like a swag (~> = quick pack up!), to strap onto the bike; plus it keeps the mud off while touring dirt roads as well.
~> Much easier to hose off the cheapo bodybag at the same time as the bike, than have to clean the goretex properly!

... back on topic?; ... without the right tyres bikes and snow are not always a good mix!

TonyB

11-May-2009
9:14:16 AM

On 8/05/2009 superstu wrote:
>(b) encourage people to carry shelters for safety.

Unfortunately it doesn't always work out that way. These days I carry every piece of safety gear possible. However in my early days of BC skiing I had a partner collapse with hypothermia near Seaman's hut. In good weather, Seaman's is a very easy day/half day trip but my partner had the flu, hadn't eaten, it was very cold and very windy etc etc. It it hadn't been for Seaman's I have no doubt that she would have died.

If we had EPIRB's back then we may have been OK ... although from my experiences working at Charlotte's Pass, Parks and Wildlife were nowhere to be seen when we were out on bad weather rescues. Relying on electronic devices as a safety measure can be dangerous ... I would have thought that disabling the existing EPIRB system and changing to a new one would have been front page news, as would the day my GPS didn't work because as I later discovered, the satellites were being reprogrammed !

widewetandslippery

11-May-2009
9:26:23 AM

A large part of true "ultra light" is the constant movement/marathon man aspect. If you stay awake and keep moving you need less stuff. Camping and ultra light are contradictry terms.

That said lightweight is different altogether. I like tarps as opposed to bags. Much more roomy and you can have your kit functionally next to you not out in the shit. I've never used a bothy bag but for snow conditions I think they would have a lot of merit. Ultra marathoners do use these. I think a rule of thumb also is that if any one item is heavier than the booze it should stay out of the pack.

davids

11-May-2009
11:28:58 AM

>>I've heard unreliable reports that Bluff Hut burnt recently. Lovicks was removed at one stage

yes, Lovicks was pulled down by the family several years ago (?05), to be rebuilt - hasn't happened yet. Bluff hut was burnt down in 06 fires. - hasn't been rebuilt was far as I know. Ropers (north of Mt.Nelse on the Bogong High Plains) has been rebuilt though, and is really comfortable and beautifully lined.

re carrying a tent, and the NZ situation. The new book "Survive - remarkable tales from the NZ outdoors" by Carl Walrond has any number of deaths recorded where hikers/skiers had planned on making it to a hut, but never did.
david


IdratherbeclimbingM9

11-May-2009
3:34:25 PM

Cross link to a similar (?) thread.


sticky

11-May-2009
6:04:43 PM

"Surely you're just not doing this right! I have often found physical exertion, being in the
wilderness and going to be early very stimulating..."

I knew there was a reason I never bivvied with you, Andy!

Wollemi

11-May-2009
6:11:40 PM

What is a bothy bag, WW&S? If you mean a body bag - I doubt that ultra-marathoners
would use them - the zipper running on 3 sides alone is bulky as the remainder of the
'bag', and as a single-use item, they wouldn't be that robust would they? Will look at
work tomorrow (and weigh one). Thanks for the thought provoking post, (and, yes - I am
a nurse.)

J Qui

11-May-2009
6:31:25 PM

Hiya Superstu

All the concepts of light and fast alpine can be translated. You must though, have heaps of faith in
your gear, such as the materials and their design. They usually cost more cause they actually do their
job. I have spent heaps on trying various materials and designs, and now know how much you must
trust these factors in order for them to work.

Tent - Six Moon Designs, make ultralight singleskin tents weighing around 600g, including fly, mesh
and floor, utilising adjustable trekking pole. Awesome stuff. Tarptent also make tents of similar design,
weighing about the same.

Mat - I have a downmat 7 by exped...warm but heavy (700-800g). Get your hands on the NeoAir by
Thermarest...inflatable (can blow up by mouth too without compromising warmth from moisture),
lightweight at approx 400g for regular length (almost half a downmat 7), and rated well enough for snow
on it's own (personal factors considered).

S bag - ME Xero 250 (around 600g), or any Western Mountaineering bag (I have a Highlight bag -
around 500g)), if you know how you sleep, you may get away with a 2 season like myself, sleeping in
all my clothes and jacket (which I take regardless). I make sure I eat though, am hydrated, dry socks,
warm myself before bed (no, not by spooning my mates, I sometimes do star jumps etc) and so forth.

So, all these can weigh in at just a scratch over 1.5kg.

Clothes, look at Montane or Marmot for original softshell garments. These usually combine base layer
and mid layer in one, allowing for weight saving. Montbell also make a great synthetic jacket known as
the Thermawrap which combines base and mid in one also. You just have to know how to 'wear' them
properly, you know, venting, closing up when needed etc. I wear both Marmot Driclime softshell and
Montane Transactive. I have worn both in the NZ mountains, and they work ace. Forget day and night
thermals, use the one pair (plus one spare). As others have said, ditch the bib and brace...go
lightweight, use only thermals underneath with shell over top - it works well. I use a Lowe Alpine Outer
Limits synthetic jacket (for main insulation) for the synthetic advantages, and I do wear it to bed also.
Buy a very light shell Jacket such as GoLite, Mammut, Montane, Montbell's Ballistic material tops
them all (Any good jacket will weigh in under 400g). With the 'original' style soft shell on you hardly
reach for the jacket (if you work the softshell properly, and have faith in the material).

Food - I dehydrate my own, its light (each meal weighs about 80g) and I know what has gone in it.

Alcohol - try and not shave weight here...just enjoy it. :-)

Stove - depending on what i do determines which of my stoves I take. I have a Kovea Titanium stove
weighing in at 60g. I take one canister of fuel, but you need to know how to make it work well
(spooning my canister, insulate, dipping canister in water for a moment to increase canister pressure
midway through cooking etc). For lots of snow melt for water or longer trips I have an MSR Windpro.
Again, a canister stove, but very light, I have inverted the canister, which achieves the same result as
liquid stoves (with similar priming precautions etc) and it burns to the last drop in the canister. For
longer trips I take more (or spare) canisters. If the canister fails on a single canister trip, it's no big
deal, I can do without it (although with limitations).

Pack - look at Gossamer Gear. Awesome lightweight packs weighing in at 500g. Strong, but if you
want to hack them then go for a stronger weight fabric in other brands. Osprey make some great light
packs. I have an Osprey Talon 44 also, lightish at around 1.1 kg, heaps of features for 'snow stuff' and
strong. That also took a beating in NZ.

For safety, choose a lighter GPS (dont forget your 10 essentials though). I have a Garmin eTrex Vista
Cx, it works well for me. Use it all the time. I also carry a PLB (Personal Location Beacon) with built in
GPS that can locate me down to quite a small area. They are two weights that I dont sacrifice.

Anyways, hope this helps. Lightweight packing is quite addictive.


Icarus

11-May-2009
6:58:23 PM

A Bothy bag is a lightweight rectangle shelter thing. Andy Kirkpatrick raves about them.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=1163

J Qui

11-May-2009
7:17:24 PM

Hi Wollemi

A bothy bag is a waterproof capsule/enclosure for emergency purposes. I have one, made by Terra
Nova (Bothy 4) which, in my opinion, is ace. You open it out, pull it down around you (and others,
depending on the size of your Bothy) and shelter from inclement weather. The advantages are that you
share company with your companions, you share heat, you can cook up a brew, and motivate each
other (or annoy each other). You remain sitting in them, and aren't really designed for sleeping. Mind
you, when you are in a bad situation, I don't know of many people that sleep anyway.

Traverse sports sells them for $99, that is where I purchased mine. They are reasonably weighted, at
500g for a 4 man. Has a little peep hole for viewing. Has a walking pole pocket too, for use to keep
material off your head.

http://www.terra-nova.co.uk/Product_Type/Tents/Bivi__Bothy_Bags/Bothy_4_RED.html

http://www.traversesports.com/product.cfm?cid=55&bid=&pid=118

They don't breathe though, which leads to condensation, however it is easy enough to vent it.
Awesome
product. Check this review by Any Kirkpatrick.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=1163

http://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/site/main_articles/gimme_shelter/

Hope this helps.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

12-May-2009
7:29:15 AM

>bothy bag

WW&S may have seen wallwombats one?

dmnz

12-May-2009
9:19:36 AM

On 11/05/2009 widewetandslippery wrote:
>A large part of true "ultra light" is the constant movement/marathon man
>aspect. If you stay awake and keep moving you need less stuff. Camping
>and ultra light are contradictry terms.

Yes and if things arent right soemtimes you just gotta turn around
thats the cost you pay for taking less
but when you go you can go fast

dmnz

12-May-2009
9:28:12 AM

On 11/05/2009 J Qui wrote:
I make sure I eat
>though, am hydrated, dry socks,
>warm myself before bed (no, not by spooning my mates, I sometimes do star
>jumps etc) and so forth.

He only spoons his mates in bed not before!
But seriously, Jase, you're right, the key is to be warm before bed

(how's mum and bub doin btw)

I use a Lowe Alpine Outer
>Limits synthetic jacket (for main insulation) for the synthetic advantages,
>and I do wear it to bed also.

I have a large XL unworn in red if anyone wants to buy one (I bought another brand since)


Paulie

12-May-2009
10:12:04 AM

On 11/05/2009 J Qui wrote:
>Alcohol - try and not shave weight here...just enjoy it. :-)

Another weight saving tip is to use some of your stove fuel as a mixer with some coke.

climberman

12-May-2009
10:25:23 AM

On 12/05/2009 Paulie wrote:
>On 11/05/2009 J Qui wrote:
>>Alcohol - try and not shave weight here...just enjoy it. :-)
>
>Another weight saving tip is to use some of your stove fuel as a mixer
>with some coke.

doesn't that burn your nose on the way up ?

Wollemi

12-May-2009
6:28:20 PM

On 11/05/2009 Wollemi wrote:
>What is a bothy bag, WW&S? If you mean a body bag - I doubt that ultra-
>marathoners would use them - the zipper running on 3 sides alone is bulky as the
>remainder of the 'bag', and as a single-use item, they wouldn't be that robust would they?

The funeral guys came by work today. Exchanged a cadaver for a new body bag. 550
X 300 X 30 mm tops (folded body bag, not the deceased... ). Weighed 350gm. An OK
back stiffener as well, if you have a pack with no built-in backing.


meinmuk

13-May-2009
7:49:25 PM

On 11/05/2009 sticky wrote:
>"Surely you're just not doing this right! I have often found physical exertion,
>being in the
>wilderness and going to bed early very stimulating..."
>
>I knew there was a reason I never bivvied with you, Andy!

The journey is just begun, young padawan! (P.S. Give my best to Jane...)


wallwombat

13-May-2009
8:59:49 PM

On 12/05/2009 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:

>WW&S may have seen wallwombat's one?

Maybe when I was getting changed or something but I doubt it.

There are 84 messages in this topic.