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Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

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Poll Option Votes Graph
Figure 8 (no stopper) 10
13% 
Single Bowline (no stopper) 0
 
Double Bowline (no stopper) 2
3% 
Figure 8 (with stopper) 44
56% 
Single Bowline (with stopper) 2
3% 
Double Bowline (with stopper) 19
24% 
I just thread it a couple times untill i feel safe 1
1% 
ropes why bother 1
1% 

 Page 3 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 89
Author
Im Knots About Climbing

muki
22/05/2007
5:42:35 PM
On 22/05/2007 PreferKnitting wrote:
>
>Um, not so sure that this is how forces work. If you have one sling that
>has a max force of 22Kn, then having two slings will distribute the loads
>between the two slings rather than increase the overall strength of the
>sling.
I never said TWO slings, you really have to read the post more carefully before rushing in to snipe
>BomberPro wrote:
>one length of sling is worth 22kn wrap it twice around, ie double it,
>and it's worth 44kn, do the math !
As I have explained this is basic math/physics that you really should know,
>Isn't it like adding a teaspoon of sugar into your coffee? even if you
>add more or less coffee you still have the same amount of sugar -unless
>you start to drink it and then add more coffee...
Don't really get what you're trying say here, but I'd guess its more of your typical old wives tales.
>BomberPro have you got a Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde complex? You swing wildly
>between being amicable and being down-right obnoxious. Here you are calling
>everyone stupid and slow again! You're being abit hypocritical when you
>choose to quote from TV shows such as Ugly Betty.
Again I don't understand what you're trying to get across, I am generally amicable, but occasionally
I am confronted by people who say things, that are just not true, and then use these to try and back up
their veiwpoint, this was the case when it was stated that a fellow prefered his 8 because the
rethreaded bowline could be affected by a wierd pressure at a cramped belay (untrue), and then
followed this up with concern that clipping the bite would be a bad idea (also untrue), these comments
proved his ignorance and lack of knowledge, (what I call stupidity,when stated as fact) by saying these
things in a manner that might lead other people to believe that they were true, concerned me, and
forced me to comment on these untruthes, he then admitted to being purposefully whimsical in his
response to me, this is why I called him slow, because that is not somthing that will receive a positive
response from me, as I am sure you will remember!
>Um not so sure that this is how forces work.
Obviously, if unsure as to the math/physics, then best pull your head in, before exposing such
ignorance, it reduces your credability, and your attempts to demean me or cast dispersions, when all I
am trying to do is enlighten those who only know one way to do things, as I have stated so often, I
don't care what tie in they use, but in some situations a rethreaded bowline is an exellent choice, as
apposed to no choice through lack of knowledge, and those that attemt to sway the discusion in favour
of no choice by lying about the faults of a bowline deserve ridicule.

Eduardo Slabofvic
22/05/2007
5:45:23 PM
On 22/05/2007 BigMike wrote:
>No, I've ascertained it's not.
>
>I use a figure-eight with a passback - end is passed through the knot
>again, with a bit of a loop - you can hook finger into this and pull to
>ease the knot after loading.
>
>Anyone got anything bad to say about this?

I have a friend who does this (I think). He puts the tail back through the bottom loop. He says that it
makes the bottom loop a bit broader (a bigger diameter) and says that this is the loop that fails under
testing, and by making it bigger it doesnít fail as easily, and is a bit easier to untie, as once you pull the
tail out there is a bit of slack in the knot that can then be worked around to loosen thing off.

The figure 9 or the Stevedores knot (which I havenít actually used) adds another twist (as in double the
rope, or more in case of the Stevedores knot). I have just returned from a gig rigging for a dance
company and used double figure 8ís (both normal and bunny eared) and 9ís and bowlines. Each has their
place. I make my decision on which one to use based on how difficult it is to tie in the situation Iím in,
and how much time Iíve got to tie the knot (the time available for transition from one scene to the next is
often critical)

All knots were loaded by static loads and done so repeatedly. I can report that the 9ís were still difficult to
untie, but less so than the 8ís, which usually required me to chew on the knots and whack them on the
ground several times to loosen them.

muki
22/05/2007
6:07:00 PM
On 22/05/2007 BigMike wrote:
>I use a figure-eight with a passback - end is passed through the knot
>again, with a bit of a loop - you can hook finger into this and pull to
>ease the knot after loading.
>Anyone got anything bad to say about this?
Mike this is an exellent way to tie the knot, as it increases the radial diameter of the weakest point in the
knot, ie the point at wich the knot will usualy break, the radius.
a larger radius is a stronger version of this knot! good choice, added bonus easier to undo.
Tho not easiest! suggest rethreaded bowline :)
surfinclimb
22/05/2007
8:59:58 PM
F**K my head hurts reading all this shit. Its a F**ken knot.
You tie one of the ones previously mentioned and if youve tied it right and not to much other shit goes wrong when you fall off then the knot thats connected to your harness SHOULD stop you from hitting the ground.
Which is a good thing for those that arent quite sure.
As someone thats tried most of these knots ive gotta say there all damn good and they all work otherwise I wouldnt be writing this shit.

HEY isnt all this rain nice!!!!!!!

PreferKnitting
22/05/2007
11:03:18 PM
>one length of sling is worth 22kn wrap it twice around, ie double it,
>and it's worth 44kn, do the math !

BomberPro, regardless of whether you are using two slings or doubling over one sling, you are not
increasing the sling's strength. All you are doing is distributing the load between the two points. Think
of a rope used to equalise three anchor points.

Also, the sugar in a coffee cup is not a wives tale, it's chemistry.

Anyway, BomberPro, when I wrote 'um, not sure if this is how forces work...' it was a polite way of
saying that you may need to rethink your statement. Was trying to phrase my sentence in a nice and
unconfrontational manner.

I am not out to attack you.

Also, from my own observations it appears that there are quite a large quantity of highly intellegent
people in this sport compared to other sports out there, so maybe you need to refrain from calling so
many people stupid, because probabilistically speaking you will have a fare chance of being wrong.

BigMike
22/05/2007
11:09:08 PM
On 22/05/2007 bomber pro wrote:

>Mike this is an exellent way to tie the knot, as it increases the radial
>diameter of the weakest point in the
>knot, ie the point at wich the knot will usualy break, the radius.
>a larger radius is a stronger version of this knot! good choice, added
>bonus easier to undo.


Interesting... I have noticed in the past that if the knot is shock-loaded, it tends to sqeeze down quite severely around the centre. I guess that would be the radius. I was wondering whether the passback was causing the centre of the knot to squeeze disproportionately, when compared to the effect on a regular-threaded figure eight.

So even if it's just as good as a fig 8, I"m happy.

>Tho not easiest! suggest rethreaded bowline :)

Nah them bowlines are too tricksy for a lug like me.


muki
23/05/2007
12:31:27 AM
On 22/05/2007 PreferKnitting wrote:
>>one length of sling is worth 22kn wrap it twice around, ie double it,
>>and it's worth 44kn, do the math !
thats right... do the math ok, then you will understand it.
>BomberPro, regardless of whether you are using two slings or doubling
>over one sling, you are not
>increasing the sling's strength. All you are doing is distributing the
>load between the two points. Think
>of a rope used to equalise three anchor points.
you are wrong! being a rigger and high access stone mason, I have learned what all riggers know! that
a doubled sling is worth twice as much in strength (this is almost exactly double to be precise, as
someone else mentioned, you lose a small amount due to extra radial reduction)
you should really get your facts right before shooting of your mouth like this, makes you less credible!
and highlights the fact that you are not really interested in understanding or learnig, just having a
snipe.
>Also, the sugar in a coffee cup is not a wives tale, it's chemistry.
I said OLD wives tail
>Anyway, BomberPro, when I wrote 'um, not sure if this is how forces work...'
>it was a polite way of
>saying that you may need to rethink your statement. Was trying to phrase
>my sentence in a nice and
>unconfrontational manner.
Oh I see the unconfrontational manner, the comments like"Dr jekyll and Mr hyde complex" or "being
downwright obnoxious" how about "calling every one slow and stupid again" and my favourite
"hypocrytical" that ones a gem! if you look back over the posts I can garantee you won't find any
hypocracy!
>I am not out to attack you.
Sure you are, thats quite obvious, because rather than go and find out the truth, you post yet another
attack on the validity of what I'm trying to tell you.
You just have to get over this holier than thou $#!+ and admit it, if not to me, then to yourself.
>Also, from my own observations it appears that there are quite a large
>quantity of highly intellegent
>people in this sport compared to other sports out there,
If this is the case then by all means go and ask one of them if what I have said is right! cos maybe
then you will listen, and learn somthing instead of going off all the time!
>so maybe you
>need to refrain from calling so
>many people stupid, because probabilistically speaking you will have a
>fare chance of being wrong.
I don't mind being wrong about things (somthing you should come to grips with by the way) gives me
the chance to learn!

mousey
23/05/2007
12:42:48 AM
this is great fun.
as a rigger i have been taught the same thing.... but if the stitching is rated to 22kN then it makes sense to me that doubling up a stitched sling would only add as much strength as the additional friction at the load point (not really making it stronger,just reducing the load tha the stitching is subjected to)
to my very green physics brain (i dropped physics in yr 11) you would have to have to have 2 stitched slings side by side, each with 22kN ratings. but i dont know what im talking about so ignore me. all i know is that if my body is subjected to 22kN, the little sling on my harness wont mean much

muki
23/05/2007
12:59:15 AM
On 23/05/2007 mousey wrote:
>this is great fun.
More fun than drinking till you spew,then sleeping in it?
>as a rigger i have been taught the same thing....
advanced rigger, or just a tafe course?
> but if the stitching is rated to 22kN
No, the stiching (It's called bar tacking, like that used in harnesses and belay loops),is well over that
amount, the webbing itself is the point at wich they fail.
>then it makes sense to me that doubling up a stitched
>sling would only add as much strength as the additional friction at the
>load point (not really making it stronger,just reducing the load tha the
>stitching is subjected to)
you should have listened in class Josh, it is nearly doubled.
>to my very green physics brain (i dropped physics in yr 11) you would
>have to have to have 2 stitched slings side by side, each with 22kN ratings.
>but i dont know what im talking about so ignore me. all i know is that
>if my body is subjected to 22kN, the little sling on my harness wont mean
>much
that much of what you have to say is true enough, only several Kn will kill, a much lower figure than
the gear gives up at.

mousey
23/05/2007
1:07:53 AM
no, not quite that much fun
and i was using the term rigger far too loosley, im just RA. regardless, i have been taught the same thing.

if the stitching is not the weak point then it makes perfect sense that the strength would be doubled.

muki
23/05/2007
1:20:40 AM
G'nite josh, lets hook up for a climb next time you're up in quartsite country.

mousey
23/05/2007
1:22:37 AM
roger roger, ohhh i mean pumpkin pie.
sweet dreams
Ronny
23/05/2007
9:01:08 AM
On 23/05/2007 bomber pro wrote:
>On 22/05/2007 PreferKnitting wrote:
>>>one length of sling is worth 22kn wrap it twice around, ie double it,
>>>and it's worth 44kn, do the math !
>thats right... do the math ok, then you will understand it.
>>BomberPro, regardless of whether you are using two slings or doubling
>>over one sling, you are not
>>increasing the sling's strength. All you are doing is distributing the
>>load between the two points. Think
>>of a rope used to equalise three anchor points.
>you are wrong! being a rigger and high access stone mason, I have learned
>what all riggers know! that
>a doubled sling is worth twice as much in strength

Hey Bomb if you bothered to read what PK was saying, you would have realised that you were at cross purposes. Of course you can hang (almost) twice as much of a doubled over sling as a single length sling. But the sling itself isn't really getting any stronger. It doesn't magically pump some iron and buff-up in the doubling over process (ok now this is getting whimsical and silly). What you've done is caused the load to be distributed over 4 lengths rather than two, hence (almost) doubling the 'strength' or load carrying capacity of the system.

I forget how his was originally related to knots though...

IdratherbeclimbingM9
23/05/2007
9:17:27 AM
Yep. Your post saved me the trouble of pointing that out too, Ronny.

It is funny how bystanders can often see both sides to the coin but those argueing the toss can often only see one side.

Makes for interesting reading though, as long as the participants don't blow a valve or feel crushed.
:-))
fish boy
23/05/2007
10:30:54 AM
Bomber only ever see's his side...arrogant goat.

muki
23/05/2007
11:01:28 AM
On 23/05/2007 Ronny wrote:
>On 23/05/2007 bomber pro wrote:
>one length of sling is worth 22kn wrap it twice around, ie double it,
>and it's worth 44kn, do the math !
It's worth= It's holding power, this is so obvious, that It's just semantics to try and argue this point!
>BomberPro, regardless of whether you are using two slings or doubling
>over one sling, you are not increasing the sling's strength.
If you increase "holding" power then you are increasing "strength"
>All you are doing is distributing the load between the two points.
Thats how it was described to you in the post. A sling thats rated can only ever be rated at that
amount, that is just so obvious that you would have to be stupid to think that it could just jump up in
its rating! what I said so very clearly, was that it's worth was doubled that means it's holding power.
I wrote very clearly, with no chance of misunderstanding
>a doubled sling is worth twice as much in strength
you would have to be trying to stir up trouble to try and twist this around using semantics.
>Hey Bomb if you bothered to read what PK was saying, you would have realised
>that you were at cross purposes. Of course you can hang (almost) twice
>as much of a doubled over sling as a single length sling. But the sling
>itself isn't really getting any stronger.
ARE you being whimsical again (read stupid) as I have said a sling is rated end of story, the systems
that can be employed can allow you to double the "worth" of that set value, ie its holding power.
>It doesn't magically pump some iron and buff-up in the doubling over process
I am begining to think that you and granma need to get together and do a reading comprehension class
>(ok now this is getting whimsical and silly).
this seems to be a recuring problem with you!
>What you've done is caused the load to be distributed over
>4 lengths rather than two, hence (almost) doubling the 'strength' or load
>carrying capacity of the system.
very astute of you, maybe you if you had read the post correctly in the first place you could have
gleaned this information much earlier than now.
>I forget how his was originally related to knots though...
It was a comment that "Prefers knitpicking" thought she could jump on to try and give people the
impression that either I did'nt know what I was talking about or that I was wrong!
she'll have to do better than semantics I'm afraid, as now all she's done is make herself look foolish !!!
fish boy
23/05/2007
11:10:06 AM
Hey Bomber, when you go out the crag, do you have any time to climb?

I am picturing you walking around the Organ Pipes lecturing the bumblies and then squeezing in poxy routes with pussy bolts...

muki
23/05/2007
11:12:57 AM
You forgot ripping the heads of pimply arsholes like you.
fish boy
23/05/2007
11:18:38 AM
Do you talk to your little sprogs like that (with the correct use of '"of"...)?

Maybe I will when I see them....
dalai
23/05/2007
11:27:00 AM
C'mon guys relax! This camp side chat is getting decidedly hostile.




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There are 89 messages in this topic.

 

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