Chockstone Forum

      Sponsored By
      ROCK
   HARDWARE

Chockstone Photography

Australian Landscape Prints

Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

Rave About Your Rack Please do not post retail SPAM.

Poll Option

Votes

Graph

Figure 8 (no stopper)

12%

Single Bowline (no stopper)

Double Bowline (no stopper)

Figure 8 (with stopper)

56%

Single Bowline (with stopper)

Double Bowline (with stopper)

24%

I just thread it a couple times untill i feel safe

ropes why bother

Author

Im Knots About Climbing

wyt91t

19-May-2007
1:09:23 PM

Just wondering what knot you use to tie in when climbing.
Also on another knote what knot do you teach people to use when they first start climbing,this would be iinteresting to see if there's a difference in what they use as to what they teach them to use.


Sabu

19-May-2007
3:57:38 PM

i've never climbed on anything but a figure 8. we teach our kids the school club to tie figure 8's too, simply because it's easy and we can clearly explain/demonstrate it.

pharmamatt

19-May-2007
4:12:09 PM

after watching cliffhanger last night, who needs ropes just use a bolt gun!

tastybigmac

19-May-2007
4:33:41 PM

fig8 is also really easy to check. only the really stupid people have trouble with this. i usually teach a
stopper knot for absolute newbies just to make sure they leave enough tail. otherwise they do nothing.


HM33

19-May-2007
4:43:26 PM

Climbed on a figure 8 for years then saw the light and the virtues of a bowline with a double twist and stopper knot. sooo easy to undo when you take a fall.


muki

19-May-2007
8:34:37 PM

On 19/05/2007 tastybigmac wrote:
>fig8 is also really easy to check. only the really stupid people have trouble with this.

The knot I use is way better than the 8 and easy to check! unless you don't understand how to tie it!
same as an 8 I suppose, if you didn't know how to tie an 8 then it would be hard to check!
the rethreaded bowline is better than a double twist bowline, as it passes twice through the harness.
That makes it IMPOSSIBLE to come undone!
Then just rethread it as you would rethread an 8, simple.
Also can't be half tied, and then forgotten about, like Mike law on Boy Racer, as it's tied in one motion.
Very easy to check! you just have to know how to tie it, just like an 8 in that regard I suppose.
Then finish with a stopper knot, totally bomproof, then unties easily after a big fall, unlike the 8.

ghost

19-May-2007
9:52:27 PM

Sabu :
>a figure 8 .

http://media3.guzer.com/pictures/knot_neck.jpg

MR. REDZONE

20-May-2007
8:11:03 AM

I recommend a figure 36

http://www.flickr.com/photos/46067654@N00/423122950/in/set-72157600002983560/


dave h.

20-May-2007
10:15:43 AM

Hey Bomber,

I'm guessing the knot you're talking about isn't the "Yosemite bowline".

Is it the double bowline, pictured under Tech Tips?

And if not could I / we please have a picture of it?

I think a friend said Lynn Hill also did the 'half-tied fig-8' once...

Ronny

20-May-2007
11:04:10 AM

On 19/05/2007 bomber pro wrote:
>On 19/05/2007 tastybigmac wrote:
>>fig8 is also really easy to check. only the really stupid people have
>trouble with this.
>
>The knot I use is way better than the 8 and easy to check! unless you
>don't understand how to tie it!
>same as an 8 I suppose, if you didn't know how to tie an 8 then it would
>be hard to check!
>the rethreaded bowline is better than a double twist bowline, as it passes
>twice through the harness.
>That makes it IMPOSSIBLE to come undone!
>Then just rethread it as you would rethread an 8, simple.
>Also can't be half tied, and then forgotten about, like Mike law on Boy
>Racer, as it's tied in one motion.
>Very easy to check! you just have to know how to tie it, just like an
>8 in that regard I suppose.
>Then finish with a stopper knot, totally bomproof, then unties easily
>after a big fall, unlike the 8.

Hey Bomb, this is crap really. I tie in with this knot - so I agree that its better than the fig 8 in certain circumstances. But you can definitely half tie it - you just stop midway (say before you thread it back through your harness...). How is it any more 'one-motion' than re-threading a fig 8? Presumably you mean that you don't tie one knot in the rope, then thread through harness, then re-thread. But this really ain't much different to threading rope through harness, tieing knot, rethreading through harness, rethreading through knot...

The deal with knowing how to tie it is that if you mess the bowline up, you might have a problem. Whereas with a fig 8, so long as you start with a fig 8 or something similar, and re-thread it through a number of times (but say in the wrong directions) its probably going to hold anyway, as the original knot will tighten up and hold it. So its completely useless to say 'you just have to know how to tie it' - of course you do. Any knot will hold right if you know how to tie it correctly and do so.

The poll should have an option for 'fig 8 in some circumstances, bowline in others'. I'd vote for that. Horses for courses really...


muki

20-May-2007
7:39:02 PM

On 20/05/2007 Ronny wrote:

>Hey Bomb, this is crap really.

NICE!

>But you can definitely half tie it - you just stop midway
>(say before you thread it back through your harness...)
>How is it any more 'one-motion' than re-threading a fig 8?

Well, to put it simply for you, a half tied 8 will be worth shit,
and my version will still hold a fall even half tied, before rethreading.

>Presumably you mean that you don't tie one knot in the rope,
>then thread through harness, then re-thread.

Thats exactly what I said in my above post, no chance of only tieing half a knot!

>But this really ain't much different
>to threading rope through harness, tieing knot, rethreading through harness,
>rethreading through knot...

Yes it is, you yourself just said it "threading the rope through harness, TIEING THE KNOT,
(in one motion) reathreading through harness, rethreading through knot..."

>The deal with knowing how to tie it is that if you mess the bowline up, you might have a problem.

Yes I agree! the deal is knowing how to tie it! so if you mess it up you don't know how to tie it, do you!

>Any knot will hold right if you know how to tie it correctly and do so.

Sounds like what I said, you have to know how to tie it!
But you've got me interested in somthing you said,
what possible situation would the 8 be a better tie in? I can't think of one!


muki

20-May-2007
7:55:59 PM

Hi Dave h, heres a couple of pictures


Chuck Norris

20-May-2007
11:03:35 PM

As much as I welcome the banter...which I'm looking forward to help me through my working day
tomorrow... I can't believe we are on to the my knot is better than your knot shit again.

There is some truth to the "tie it in one motion" point as I heard from a reliable source that Muthiah
Muralitharan is working on tying simultaneous bomber/yosemite bowline with each hand as a
demonstration that it can be tied in one motion...what's more he does it without bending his elbows
beyond 15degrees.

Seriously, doesn't it come back to ronny's points

>Any knot will hold right if you know how to tie it correctly...AND DO SO

if you really think that a knot - no matter how experienced you are - is going to protect you from human
stupidity then you have a dangerous overestimation of the magical powers of snake charming and a
serious underestimation of how easy it is to get distracted (i.e. your own human stupidity)..it's well
known that Like Maws' ill-knotted attempt at "Roy Bacer" was because he got distracted mid-knot after
hearing there was a half price mascara sale at the horsham bi-lo...or maybe that was ralph and a black
nail polish sale?...i can't remember...

Now that we've established the facts about quality, no discussion about knots can be complete without
mentioning size. Most of the time on single pitch sport routes i use a double bowline because its
small, easy to adjust, quick to tie, you can't have the "OH SHIT i forgot to untie the fig 8" moment
when you pull the ropes. But thats on safe single pitch sport routes when my balls are swollen from
the knowledge that I'm a hypercharged adrenaline junkie happy to whip all day on my easy to untie
bowline. In those cases I couldn't climb if there was anything in the way of my super engorged gonads,
whether it is a figure 8 or a quadruple yosemite/bomber dohikky.

BUT...if i have to get out on a climb that involves doing the stupid act of climbing for more than a rope
length & frig about with belays and belay change overs etc...then I'll tie on with a fig 8 because I never
know when i might have to clip something into the bight, or put some weird pressure on the knot on a
cramped belay...and more importantly do it over and over again...i.e. when i'm scared and my balls are
shrivelled to the size of nothing larger than a peanut I don't mind a well tied fig 8 clunking about my
peanuts because no matter how bulky it is as there is plenty of room.

If anyone wants to use a different knot in either of those situations then I couldn't care - as long as
they tie it correctly....I'm still alive with the above approach and i'm going to stick to it...as you no
doubt will stick with yours....


mousey

20-May-2007
11:15:41 PM

On 20/05/2007 dave h. wrote:
>I think a friend said Lynn Hill also did the 'half-tied fig-8' once...

yup she was in euro AGES ago and did the climb, then went to loweroff and whamo, ended up in hostpital with back & elbow shit from memory

i have always tied in with a fig8, but ive just started using a dbl bowline for sport routes where im falling a lot. will still continue to user fig8 for everything else though, and i always have/prob always will teach fig8 to clients when guiding, mates when theyre starting etc


dave h.

20-May-2007
11:41:34 PM

Thanks for that Bomber :)

I'll probably give it a try, when I go climbing with some bowline-using types - I would like to try new things, I'm just cautious about switching to a new tie-in knot for obvious reasons.

Safe climbing everyone...


muki

21-May-2007
12:45:11 AM

On 20/05/2007 stugang wrote:

>knot shit again.

Yeah NICE

>Any knot will hold right if you know how to tie it correctly...AND DO
>SO

Totally agree

>i use a double bowline because its small, easy to adjust, quick to tie,
>you can't have the "OH SHIT i forgot to untie the fig 8" moment
>when you pull the ropes.

another bonus of the bowline, didn't see the need to mention it, as it's not a safety consideration at all.

>I tie on with a fig 8 because I never
>know when i might have to clip something into the bight, or put some weird
>pressure on the knot on a cramped belay...

Oh yeah, the old exploding bowline weird pressure syndrome, I've heard that they catch fire if cliped at
the bite, NO ! thats a joke people, that does not happen in the real world OK! only a terrified
multipitcher could come up with such delusional drivel, stick to single pitch sport routes Stuge.
a bowline can be clipped at the bite with total safety, but who would do that? when you could do any
number of things that would be quicker/more practical, like a daisy, or a clove hitch on the rope to the
anchor (adjustable without coming off safety!) to think it could come undone by clipping the bite means
you don't understand the basic mechanics of this knot at all!
It sounds like the only reason you tie a bowline at all, is because it comes undone easy, and you whip
often! and maybe you are scared of hights as well, not a good combo for feeling secure on a big multi.
None of the reasons you have given is a rational or well thought out reason for not using a bowline on
a multi-pitch climb, so I'll have to assume that you don't really have a good reason and are just scared,
and so go back to what you know, the old school 8, tied tried and trusted, without really thinking about
why? or what could be an improvement or a step forward in safety! seriosly.
I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU TIE IN WITH, OK, JUST STOP COMMING UP WITH LAME EXCUSES
ABOUT WHY YOU ARE TOO SCARED OR IGNORANT, TO TRY AND BE OPEN MINDED!!!!!!
Remember that at one time many things were unthinkable,"THE LEADER MUST NOT FALL" but now
crew like Stuge take big whippers all day long! at one time cracks were unprotectable, now we have
camming devises, at one time a fall meant that you had pretty messed up ribs, and a bruise to show
for it, now we think nothing of repeated falls of somtimes 10m or more, this is called evolution people.
we are only permitted to grow and learn if we open our minds to the possibility's, the future, and an
ever evolving technology, our tools and the gear that we have to play with, use it, understand it's uses,
and limitations! and explore it's potential!... The bomb
PS, Stuge, my knot's not better than yours, I just understand it better than you.


Chuck Norris

21-May-2007
1:24:10 AM

I don't doubt your double dohicky bowline stands up to multidirectional forces in the bight for hours on
end. I was being whimsical above in case you missed it. The truth is i prefer a double bowline in most
situations (but I HAVE seen them loosen - in particular with very new thick/stiff sheafed
ropes)...however, my non-whimsical opinion is that being particularly evangelical of one knot over another
is missing the point. Because as mentors and guides we should be encouraging a discipline of checking
and rechecking a knot rather that teaching a magic knot that will cure the heathen beginners of all their
ails...And moreover I think the latter is more dangerous than the former.

ps. your rant made me laugh....hope i did likewise...


IdratherbeclimbingM9

21-May-2007
1:32:06 AM

Interesting evening we are having here is it (k)not fellow climbers?
BTW I wouldn't give either of those knots a ghost of a chance of staying done up on a small size hex in a significant fall.
Heh, heh, heh.
;-)


M9whereisthat

21-May-2007
1:36:38 AM

my first whip was on a #1 hex cammed in a parallel horizontal....i told you I was your shadow...


IdratherbeclimbingM9

21-May-2007
2:06:09 AM

On 21/05/2007 M9whereisthat wrote:
>my first whip was on a #1 hex cammed in a parallel horizontal....i told
>you I was your shadow...

& did it RIP. ?
;-}
... those small sized hex's have that shortcoming; ... heh, heh, (esp. in flares !)
;-}
;-}
... depending on how obscure the placement I find they're smallness is best suited when jamBed hard (like they are meant for), in vertical cracks ;-} ;-}
... & it's still often preferable to backup the little buggers in that situation as they can be hard to trust ;-} ;-}
... I guess it depends a lot on how you feel about the placement in the spirit of the moment.
Heh, heh, heh.

There are 89 messages in this topic.