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length and diameter of cordalette


Sabu

7-Jan-2007
11:27:04 AM

wat i find useful on big multipitches is actually having two cordelette's. second carries up the spare and the leader carries one at all times. that way at the changeover after a pitch the leader can obtain another cordelette while the first is still in use.


andyR

7-Jan-2007
11:31:00 AM

On 7/01/2007 Sabu wrote:
>wat i find useful on big multipitches is actually having two cordelette's.
>second carries up the spare and the leader carries one at all times. that
>way at the changeover after a pitch the leader can obtain another cordelette
>while the first is still in use.

Absoutely.


skink

7-Jan-2007
12:34:28 PM

On 4/01/2007 Cool Hand Lock wrote:
me a line someday, I'll show you all kinds of ways to use them.

>
>Just remember. It's only as strong as one strand. As where it goes through
>the biner, there's only only strand through the biner itself.

ummm, no, if you are saying a loop is only as strong as one strand.

the strength of a loop is twice the strength of a single strand (ignoring the knot issue), even tho there is only one strand on the inside of the biner - hard to get one's head around it but I managed to convince myself after doing head-scratching.

Just thought I'd be pedantic and point out something that may send people off on a mission to buy 8mm cordelettes!


kezza

9-Jan-2007
9:26:52 PM

Question:

Is there a situation where you can not use the end of a rope for anchors? Other than situations where the route is only as long as the rope and using the rope will mean the leader is left short...

I'm still a trad newbie.. Be kind..


IdratherbeclimbingM9

9-Jan-2007
9:36:46 PM

It is not so much that you can't use the rope at anchors, as that it is often harder to equalise multiple pieces in an anchor (particularly complicated ones with marginal pieces), when using the rope. In practice you will find that even if slack is taken out by clove hitching off individual pieces, if the anchor was to take a significant impact the loading would tend to come onto many of the pieces one at a time, or at less than ideal angles.
This is not a problem if the individual pieces are bomber and would hold the anticipated load on their own.
It is also not a problem if you have so much lead rope left over that you can use it cordelette fashion to 'equalise' spread out pieces.


rhinckle

9-Jan-2007
9:38:59 PM

go for 9mm, then you can use it to lengthen your lead rope when running pitches together.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

9-Jan-2007
10:06:23 PM

Could be a problem passing the connecting knot through any pro out of reach of the belayer?
Simul-climbing could be a better option?

Another point re kezza's earlier query: If lowering leader off (or self rescue lowering on a multipitch), using lead rope in an anchor could leave you short on distance.


kezza

9-Jan-2007
10:08:21 PM

On 9/01/2007 M9iswhereitsat wrote:
>if the anchor was to take a significant impact the loading would tend to
>come onto many of the pieces one at a time, or at less than ideal angles.

and this wouldn't happen using cordalette?

Tell me if I'm being daft... My brain could think about this for a while before things click


IdratherbeclimbingM9

9-Jan-2007
10:24:27 PM

>and this wouldn't happen using cordalette?
It could, but to a greatly limited extent.
That is the main advantage of a cordelette; ie it's ability to 'equalise' loading on a number of components for an anticipated direction.
If the direction of loading changes then they are not as good as a 'sliding X' at re-equalising any further loading, should individual components rip.
Then again a sliding X can have the disadvantage of extending an arm and giving greater (shock)-loading to remaining pieces should one of its anchor components rip.
This can be reduced by tying off extendable arms at certain locations but the more you do this the more the sliding X is limited in it's range of movement to cope.

It is all a compromise and really only becomes an issue when the anchor components are manky.
The greater the mankiness, then the greater the issue.

The most complicated anchors will often have elements of both systems incorporated into them to get the maximum benefit from awful individual protection placements.


kezza

9-Jan-2007
10:43:37 PM

I'm putting this down to a case of "you gotta see it to understand it".... : )


IdratherbeclimbingM9

9-Jan-2007
10:58:33 PM

Here is a link to a post I made back in 2002 that might make it clearer in terms of loading direction changes.

http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=Display&ForumID=1&MessageID=303

These things can come about for a variety of reasons particularly on wandering trad lines.
Envisage if you will, a leader sets off on a rising/slanting traverse on the 2nd pitch of a climb, places pro, clips it, and then falls. The anchor will have to take a sideways component of loading as well as an upwards component. If any gear the leader placed rips then that same anchor could end up taking a downwards loading also.
A cordelette is really only great for one direction, and often is good for the exact opposite direction if the placements are multidirectional (eg bolts! or good cams in a good horizontal crack; ... picture straight up climbing above the belay; ... a cordelette set for an upward load would likely be good for a downward load also).
Pendulum falls with high fall factors involved (no gear between falling leader and anchor when more than a pitch up on a multipitch), create a myriad of directional loading components on anchors which may initially cope, but if a component of it rips then those loads can be transferred to the remaining pieces in directions not originally anticipated.

The belayer can assist in minimising the loads by being the 'cushion' in the system; ie belaying off their waist harness instead of directly off the cordelette.
They must be securely anchored to the cordelette though, and with nil slack rope in the system in case they are jerked into a new position, ... possibly off the belay ledge!

If it all goes pear shaped then the belayer needs to know more complicated ways of escaping the belay system without dropping the (possibly injured or suspended) leader.

It is all good fun (the technical jiggery pokery stuff) if you are up for it!

Practice in controlled environments.


kezza

9-Jan-2007
11:15:41 PM

I need to get out more! So much to learn! Trad is hard work!!! It's only the beginning, my brain is fried with info Blah!

I'm seeing what you mean with that rising slanty traverse thing... Although I could be picturing something different altogether! But for now it works for me : )


IdratherbeclimbingM9

9-Jan-2007
11:31:40 PM

>Trad is hard work!!!
Nah.
It's fun.
This stuff comes easy if you climb with people who have the experience and are prepared to pass on the info. Doing it for real is much better than learning it academically from books/websites etc.
Even a demo at a campfire discussion has more flavour than a textbook 'cos you can't beat that tactile experience of rope handling, specially if you are a gear freak like me!
Heh, heh, heh.


Phil Box

10-Jan-2007
9:44:04 AM

I highly recommend John Longs new Anchors book. It is now available in shops and it demonstrates all the latest thinking in the design and construction of anchors. It is quite voluminous in its discussions and it does not give a definitive answer to this vexing question of what anchor is best for all situations. Rather it explores the thinking behind the physics of anchor building giving the reader the necessary tools from which he/she can build the best anchor for any given situation.

By and large the theory of SRENE (Solid Redundant Equalised and No Extension) is fully discussed to demonstrate its shortcomings. Limited extension is demonstrated to be a valuable tradeoff against equalisation.

Once again I highly recommend that all climbers buy and review this book, it distills much of the internet discussions from various climbing forums as to the efficacy of various extension limiting systems in equalising cordalettes etc.

Awesome book but one has to plow through it at times but it is definitely worth doing the hard slog to gain a greater understanding of the physics and mechanics of anchor systems.

You've all heard of cascade failure of anchors well this book deals with the prevention of this alarming failure mode. Get the book, I cannot recommend it more highly.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

10-Jan-2007
9:57:49 AM

G'day PB,
Could you please give the Title, Publisher and ISBN number of the 'new' anchors book by John Long so that people who wish to order it (like me), can more easily.
Ta.


Sabu

10-Jan-2007
11:44:21 AM

On 9/01/2007 M9iswhereitsat wrote:
>>Trad is hard work!!!
>Nah.
>It's fun.
Hell yea!
>This stuff comes easy if you climb with people who have the experience
>and are prepared to pass on the info. Doing it for real is much better
>than learning it academically from books/websites etc.
True, nothing beats hands on experience. I learnt some little things from books (e.g. how jam, good vs bad placements and prussik knots etc.) and practiced them whenever i had a chance: resulting in me hanging from our school climbing setting up anchors, abseiling, prussiking and setting up fake rescue lines! also had an experienced friend show us the ropes for ages and curtisy of his patience with leading and following us up easy routes over and over, i and others that were taught, feel extremely happy and confident with our growing leading ability.


Phil Box

10-Jan-2007
11:44:30 AM

Dunno the ISBN number as the book is at home at mo. It is called Climbing Anchors by John Long. It is published by Falcon Books. It is in the same series as all the other Falcon climbing instructional books.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

10-Jan-2007
12:01:08 PM

>It is called Climbing Anchors by John Long.>It is published by Falcon Books.>It is in the same series as all the other Falcon climbing instructional books.
?
?
I thought;
Climbing Anchors by John Long
... was originally published by Chockstone Press in 1993 (ISBN 0-934641-37-4) as part of the 'How to rock climb series'.

Later (1996) in the same series, by the same publisher, came;
More Climbing Anchors by John Long & Bob Gaines (ISBN 1-57540-000-6)

It sounds unusual to have the same title for the latest book even if he has changed publisher, and I don't want to confuse the bookstore people and end up getting the same book I already have; so if you get a chance to confirm ISBN (Falcon?) details (at your convenience), I would appreciate it.


BigMike

10-Jan-2007
12:06:46 PM

Wasn't "More Climbing Anchors" an update after he'd converted to the cult of cordelettes?


Phil Box

10-Jan-2007
12:15:17 PM

He has combined climbing anchors and more climbing anchors into one updated and expanded version.

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