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Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

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 Page 5 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 98
Author
SRENE anchors may go the way of the dinosaur
widewetandslippery
31/03/2009
12:44:45 PM
Patto I agree. The big fuking sling in all its terms is good though if you aren't swinging pitches minimising clusterfuk. I've personally found otherwise if the gear is close enough to use a cordelette its easy to equalise using the rope and if the belay pieces are far enough apart for this not to be the case then the BFS is generally not big enough. Its not like most here regularly emulate Jim Beyer belays.
rolsen1
31/03/2009
2:34:03 PM
On 31/03/2009 patto wrote:
>I find this whole thing a case of attempting to solve a non existant problem.
>
>Most often I use the climbing rope for my anchor. And it typically seems
>fairly well equalised. This can be roughly tested by plucking each strand.

True, but you're talking about tensions applied as you belay without loading of the rope from the climber. We all try to sit/stand inline with the expected fall and tighten up the belay as such but during the actual weighting of a fall does it all happen as we predict. The position of the first "jesus" piece (height and angle) is critical in this situation.

The point is a sliding x adjusts when the angles change and a tied belay doesn't. Having said all that, I agree the climbing rope is probably usually the way to go.
patto
31/03/2009
5:46:38 PM
On 31/03/2009 rolsen1 wrote:
>On 31/03/2009 patto wrote:
>>I find this whole thing a case of attempting to solve a non existant
>problem.
>>
>>Most often I use the climbing rope for my anchor. And it typically seems
>>fairly well equalised. This can be roughly tested by plucking each strand.
>
>True, but you're talking about tensions applied as you belay without loading
>of the rope from the climber.

No I was talking about a loaded anchor when my seconder is hang dogging. I did this on my climb on the weekend and was quite satisfied that all strands seemed tight. Sure one strand might have had 40% of the load and the others 30% of the load but does it really matter?

pmonks
1/04/2009
4:10:33 AM
On 31/03/2009 rolsen1 wrote:
>Having said all that, I agree the climbing rope is probably usually the way to go.

Except that if you need to escape the belay, having the rope an integral part of the anchor is a bit of a problem.

Imagine being 4 pitches up an 8 pitch route, your second is hanging unconscious at the other end of the rope, 20m down, and you need to get down to them in a hurry to check if they're ok. Can you tie the second off? Can you escape the belay, without becoming detached from it? Is there enough rope available to rap down to your second? etc. etc.

That said I'm not sure my current anchoring approach (equalise everything via multiple sliding Xes to two main anchor points, then clove hitch the rope into those two points) deals well with this situation...

Mikl - in your gym-to-crag training do you cover escaping the belay? It seems like something that deserves to be practiced in a controlled setting, since the possibilities for complete clusterfscks in that kind of situation seem pretty high.
mikl law
1/04/2009
8:49:03 AM
On the night we did two very basic hauls, but had an illustration of the belay escape method. The point of the evenign was to expose people to a lot of things that they have to do further work on.

My normal method of belaying off my body makes escape more complicated than it needs to be.
rolsen1
1/04/2009
11:01:42 PM
On 1/04/2009 pmonks wrote:
>On 31/03/2009 rolsen1 wrote:
>>Having said all that, I agree the climbing rope is probably usually the
>way to go.
>
>Except that if you need to escape the belay, having the rope an integral
>part of the anchor is a bit of a problem.
>
You've got a point. I'd imagine and in general trad climbing being able to escape the belay (easily and quickly) is low on the list of priorities. The point is cordalettes are advertised as distributing the load evenly to all pieces where the evidence seems to suggest the contrary.

I reckon people who don't belay off their harness are slack (and I probably wouldn't climb with them) and their reason for doing so is comfort not being able to quickly save a life!

ajfclark
2/04/2009
9:37:01 AM
On 1/04/2009 rolsen1 wrote:
>The point is cordalettes are advertised as distributing the load evenly to all pieces where the evidence seems to suggest the contrary.

When the arms of the anchor are not the same length the load is not distributed evenly due to the differing amount of stretch (eg 1% of x < 1% of y where y = 2x) allowing more load to transfer to the piece which is connected with the least stretch . I suspect that a dynamic rope would aggravate this further as it's designed to stretch.
patto
2/04/2009
12:06:28 PM
On 2/04/2009 ajfclark wrote:
>On 1/04/2009 rolsen1 wrote:
>>The point is cordalettes are advertised as distributing the load evenly
>to all pieces where the evidence seems to suggest the contrary.
>
>When the arms of the anchor are not the same length the load is not distributed
>evenly due to the differing amount of stretch (eg 1% of x < 1% of y where
>y = 2x) allowing more load to transfer to the piece which is connected
>with the least stretch . I suspect that a dynamic rope would aggravate
>this further as it's designed to stretch.

No. Dynamic rope would reduce this problem because of the greater stretch. Consider the circumstances at extremes and this should become obvious.

Also the problem of unequal arms is far far overstated. The majority of anchors have significant angles between the arms. Here vector force geometry plays a great detmining factor of equalisation than unequal arm length. Arm length becomes significant when the angle between arms is less than 10degrees.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
6/04/2009
4:26:02 PM
On 30/03/2009 Phil Box wrote:
>On 30/03/2009 Richard Delaney wrote:
>>I'd be very interested in proposing a view possible test scenarios especially
>>around the
>>ideas:
>>- the differences in behaviour of a anthropomorphic vs static test masses
>>- as an extension, near and not so near vertical axis bodies supported
>>by sit harnesses
>>
>>If you're interested, email me - rdelaney "at" epacrisenviro.com.au
>
>Yep, we are very interested in the same things actually.

Another 1000 post milestone, by a longstanding contributor!
Hip, hop, hooray for Phil(zajollygoodfellah etc).
Good to see/read, over the years.
:)

Phil Box
6/04/2009
6:41:47 PM
A thousand post, mwah, I never knew.
rolsen1
7/04/2009
11:30:01 AM
On 2/04/2009 patto wrote:
>Also the problem of unequal arms is far far overstated.

Where is your evidence for this? Have you read the whole thread and the book that this thread is in response too?

The main point I interpret the evidence is that the weakness of a non self-adjusting system is that the central point (eg belay loop biner or powerpoint) will most likely move left, right, up or down (away from the position it was tied and equalised) when weighted in a fall causing one arm to take all the force which may be undesirable.

ambyeok
7/04/2009
9:34:32 PM
Unless we are talking TR here then most belays are conveniently located on some ledge, which means there are two points controlling the rope direction, (a) the rope could be running through some non-sharp gap at the edge of the ledge, (b) the rope is aligned by the last piece of gear. So if this unequal thing were to happen then it would happen when the second removes the last bit of gear, at which time the rope stretch is at its minimum, and at which time the second is pretty high up, but also at which time you are unlikely to have any slack between the climber and the belay. If the second slumps at this point then it seems highly likely that one of the outer pieces of gear will take the full load.
rolsen1
7/04/2009
11:54:01 PM
On 7/04/2009 ambyeok wrote:
>Unless we are talking TR here then most belays are conveniently located
snip
> second removes

We're really concerned with a leader fall factor 2 fall.

ambyeok
8/04/2009
7:19:05 AM
Oh I get it, yes, I have been working too hard!! Yeah, so second reaches belay, leader heads off, gets a few moves and falls off onto belay. Gosh, I need a holiday... luckily im off to pt perp tomorrow :)
patto
8/04/2009
2:58:00 PM
On 7/04/2009 rolsen1 wrote:
>On 7/04/2009 ambyeok wrote:
>>Unless we are talking TR here then most belays are conveniently located
>snip
>> second removes
>
>We're really concerned with a leader fall factor 2 fall.

Well if it is factor 2 falls that we a concerned about then you can still predict the direction of the load.

Phil Box
9/04/2009
1:45:15 PM
On 8/04/2009 patto wrote:
>On 7/04/2009 rolsen1 wrote:
>>On 7/04/2009 ambyeok wrote:
>>>Unless we are talking TR here then most belays are conveniently located
>>snip
>>> second removes
>>
>>We're really concerned with a leader fall factor 2 fall.
>
>Well if it is factor 2 falls that we a concerned about then you can still
>predict the direction of the load.

And yet there are still cascade failures of anchors causing deaths. Thus the need to find a better way or to at least educate the climbing community to take more care with anchors etc.

evanbb
29/05/2009
11:53:13 AM
BUMP

During this discussion there was mention of using the rope in anchors, especially when swinging leads. I had an uncomfortable feeling about this but couldn't remember what it was. Then last night, I remembered.

If you use the rope in your anchor, there is often a moment while cleaning it that there's a fair bit of slack out. I know the risk is low, but the problem exists none the less. I guess that's why I usually use cordlettes/slings. Also makes it easier to escape the anchor if something bizarre happens.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
29/05/2009
12:16:17 PM
Leave a convenient piece in and clipped off short to it, while breaking down the rest, before launching off on the next pitch...

Without re-reading the whole thread, I have since obtained the update book, read it, revised my thinking & re-rigged by cordalettes to become equalettes.

Interestingly I have found in usage, that the wider the anchor pieces/matrix is spaced, then the narrower the range of 'equalising' can be achieved from the equalette.
This is generally not a problem unless you happen to climb chossy trad like I do!
I use a longer than standard equalette and have lengthened the 'equalette' (tied-off-centre) portion from what they recommend (about 20 cm?) to 30+ cm-ish to account for my route preferences in climbing, and this seems to help retain the flexibility I desire in an anchor setup.

 Page 5 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 98
There are 98 messages in this topic.

 

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