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Freak occurrence? Bolt plate coming off


Zarb

13-Jun-2016
1:53:36 PM

I was climbing with a friend yesterday, fairly easy stuff on carrots. A bolt plate came off the second carrot while the quick draw was clipped to it (straight solid gate, not wire gate), and the last piece of protection was no more. He quickly clipped the third bolt and was safe, but for a few moments a fall probably would have been fatal.

We had a play around with a carrot at ground level to see what happened, and we worked out that there is a point on my carabiners (Camp Photon), where they are JUST narrow enough that when both the carabiner and bolt plate are at a perfectly combined angle, that they can slip off the carrot. I'm talking perhaps 3-4mm of space on the carabiner where this could happen, and only if it's moved in a certain way. Was this just a freak occurrence of a perfect combo of factors? Or is this something warranting climbing on a different carabiner?


The good Dr

13-Jun-2016
2:02:17 PM

Common issue with many biners these days and is occurring more regularly. Have heard of a number of instances this year. Gear manufacturing ompanies have mostly moved away from the bulky biners of yesteryear and updated the technology to produce lighter equipment.

A good example is the Petzl Spirit. Big biner with a narrow nose. If you are climbing on carrots you need to get large biners, though the list of these is anyones guess. Maybe the Master of Carrots (Macca) can provide the difinative list of suitable biners.

technogeekery

13-Jun-2016
2:05:06 PM

Both? Might be difficult or unusual for it to come off, but as you've clearly demonstrated it happens in practise, how confident are you going to feel knowing that it can happen again?

Presume your photons are straight gate version, but even so they are lightweight little biners. I have a bunch of fat old fashioned biners on my draws specifically to keep me happier when clipping carrots. Still don't like the bloody things (carrots/hangers) and assume that they could come unclipped at any time - but would have significantly less peace of mind with skinny biners.


rodw

13-Jun-2016
2:17:04 PM

Fixed gear should be viewed the same way as trad,..ie expect it to fail at all times and make your risk assessments accordingly...chances are like good trad it wont but nothing is 100% secure/safe...even biners clipped into Us & rings can un-clip themselves in certain situations.


E. Wells

13-Jun-2016
6:56:37 PM

Yep...saw a draw unclip itself from a ring at Shipley once at a small traverse....we played a bit and realised how possible it is. Even more so with u's.

mikllaw

14-Jun-2016
5:50:20 AM

It's well known that carrots are not very secure with modern skinny biners.

Best is to carry a fat screwgate (pear shaped HMS biner for example) for clipping crucial bolts.
Or put a 2nd biner through the bolt plate (if it fits) after you have the draw clipped.
Or slip a wire (with the nut pulled down) over the bolt after you have the draw clipped, and also clip the wire to the rope.

It is most likely to happen with bolts that protrude a bit from the rock, and very likely with small head bolts:- bolt heads for glue in can vary from 14 mm to 17 mm.


ajfclark

14-Jun-2016
7:41:33 AM

On 13/06/2016 E. Wells wrote:
>Yep...saw a draw unclip itself from a ring at Shipley once at a small traverse....we played a bit and realised how possible it is.

Like so?

This is why I like my biners facing the same direction, clipped away from the direction of travel.


ajfclark

14-Jun-2016
7:51:06 AM

Also, a few months ago I was discussing this bolt plate issue with someone and they couldn't understand what the issue was so I made a video:

Yes, the heads are probably not the right size, etc, but it was just something quick made with what i had on hand to demonstrate that different biners interacted differently.


Zarb

14-Jun-2016
8:57:31 AM

Scary. Does this happen more with the 90 degree bolt plates? Is there less wiggle room with the 45 degree plates?


ajfclark

14-Jun-2016
11:26:25 AM

I'm pretty sure it can happen with all of them. I don't have a 45 on hand to play with.

patto

14-Jun-2016
12:23:04 PM

A similar thing happened to me at Ben Cairn. I think it was on Digit Dancer (20). It would have been very ugly had I fallen and it is a slippery slab which is a long way from being secure.

I never knew quite how the quickdraw and bolt plate came off, somebody else had placed the draw up to the one that came off. But it was probably the same behaviour as that video shows.


Eduardo Slabofvic

14-Jun-2016
1:54:33 PM

On 14/06/2016 ajfclark wrote:
>>

>>

Have you retro bolted you back wall again?


ajfclark

14-Jun-2016
2:58:02 PM

The previous owners of the house had a TV installed outside so there's 6 bolts in the wall on the patio.

DJ Biggs

14-Jun-2016
3:45:47 PM

Happened to me yesterday on a traverse at Shipley as well, standard U bolts.

rolsen1

14-Jun-2016
4:25:49 PM

On 14/06/2016 patto wrote:
>A similar thing happened to me at Ben Cairn. I think it was on Digit Dancer
>(20). It would have been very ugly had I fallen and it is a slippery
>slab which is a long way from being secure.
>
>I never knew quite how the quickdraw and bolt plate came off, somebody
>else had placed the draw up to the one that came off. But it was probably
>the same behaviour as that video shows.

If it was the climb to the right of Digit Dancer then those bolts are really undersized (unless they have been fixed up.) Some might call it a feature though, you only need to shake the rope to clean the route!

rightarmbad

14-Jun-2016
8:23:13 PM

45 deg tend to be better than 90 deg.
90 deg adrenaline are particularly bad and I find RP 45 deg by far the best.
Keylock biners that narrow down near the nose are the ones to watch.

I've seen 5 draws all lift off together leaving the climber soloing 15m off the deck with only one bolt left on the climb a meter and a half above him. I was belaying.

As mentioned, use older type biners with a bit of bulk in them.
Most screwgates have extra bulk around the narrowest nose region so are generally pretty good for must not fail areas.


nmonteith

15-Jun-2016
11:11:24 PM

And stop placing carrots people!


ajfclark

15-Jun-2016
11:51:35 PM

I think they're ok in a few places. The ones under the hand rail on the horn for instance.

I find it interesting that Kong makes something akin to a bolt plate for anchors on statues or other highly visible spots: http://www.kong.it/en/2-products/items/f17-anchorage/p128-wide-soleymieux

martym

16-Jun-2016
7:11:00 AM

On 15/06/2016 ajfclark wrote:
>I think they're ok in a few places. The ones under the hand rail on the
>horn for instance.
>
>I find it interesting that Kong makes something akin to a bolt plate for
>anchors on statues or other highly visible spots: http://www.kong.it/en/2-products/items/f
>7-anchorage/p128-wide-soleymieux
"The possibility to remove the plate allows to eliminate the risk of use of the anchor point by unauthorized persons. "

Unless they come from the land of carrot bolts...

TimP

16-Jun-2016
9:16:29 AM

I haven't climbed in America but have read about "rivets" - soundless like a carrot, do they use bolt plates?

There are 46 messages in this topic.